200-amps for 5,000 sq ft house?

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Matt N

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Alameda, CA USA
I haven't done any load calcs yet, but any thoughts about the basic question? Typical new house with car charger, 60-amp pool, 50- amp oven etc.
The contractor ran 2-1/2" sched 40 pvc but the utility company (PG&E) will now own the trench due to meter location. We're trying to assess if we need a new trench and 4" pvc run. Lastly, would it make any difference if you knew that the huge flat roof will have solar?

Thanks in advance,
Matt
 
I haven't done any load calcs yet, but any thoughts about the basic question? Typical new house with car charger, 60-amp pool, 50- amp oven etc.
The contractor ran 2-1/2" sched 40 pvc but the utility company (PG&E) will now own the trench due to meter location. We're trying to assess if we need a new trench and 4" pvc run. Lastly, would it make any difference if you knew that the huge flat roof will have solar?

Thanks in advance,
Matt
I doubt the solar matters at all. I suspect the deciding factor is will the large loads be fueled by natural gas. Oven(s), stove top, dryer, pool heater, water heater. Can't do a load calc without knowing.

Just noticed you described electric oven.
 
60 amps for pool... Is that including heat?
30 amps for car charger
40- 50 amps for cooking
30 amps for central air
25 amps for electric dryer
5000 square feet general use lighting, Etc

I wouldn't even consider only 200 amp service.

but your power company is going to give you specs for what size pipe they want... Right?

one power company around here requires minimum 3-inch pipe
 
Big solar will not affect the load calc, but if you are going to be subject to 120% rule in main panel it affects your choice. If you can do a supply side tap, no problems.

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60 amps for pool... Is that including heat?
30 amps for car charger
40- 50 amps for cooking
30 amps for central air
25 amps for electric dryer
5000 square feet general use lighting, Etc

I wouldn't even consider only 200 amp service.

but your power company is going to give you specs for what size pipe they want... Right?

one power company around here requires minimum 3-inch pipe

I"m doing load calcs right now and 200-amps is way too tight. Problem is that they had planned on placing the 400-amp meter/main on property line--so could have run pool, car charger, entry gate, landscaping lighting/controls--from load center on 400. Then we could have run 200-amps straight to the house. City rejected meter location so now meter is on the house--and power company wants a 4" conduit.
Time to start digging.
 
Just do 2 x 200amp panels right after the 400amp meter. Cheaper and everyone will thank you latter. :thumbsup:
 
I did a "standard" load calculation for same size house with similar specs plus a bit extra & it came out to about 150A.
Keep in mind 200Amp is "alot" of current for a house.
 
I did a "standard" load calculation for same size house with similar specs plus a bit extra & it came out to about 150A.
Keep in mind 200Amp is "a lot" of current for a house.

Yes it is.

60 amps for pool... Is that including heat?
30 amps for car charger
40- 50 amps for cooking
30 amps for central air
25 amps for electric dryer
5000 square feet general use lighting, Etc

I wouldn't even consider only 200 amp service.

I might depending on how much of the appliances and heating are gas or geothermal vs electric.

Pool or spa? A 60A spa is drawing 48A max 15 minutes. Dryer cycles the heating on/off, for 90 min max, the last ~20 minutes of which is cool down w/no heat. Avg range/oven, aside from cooking a thanksgiving turkey for 12 hours and running maybe 3 or the 4 burners for an hour, is going to cycle usually one burner/element for a ~50% duty cycle @ ~20A, 10A overall. Two 4 ton ACs , yeah, 30A, as is the car charger, tho they are unlikely imo to be on a lot at the same time (AC at day, charger at night). Tank type water heater, add another 20A of long, continuous load. OP is in CA in a temperate region; extreme heat or cold weather isn't going to be like Houston, or Buffalo.

What you listed is 185A (and ~205A with electric water heater)if they were all on simultaneously and with thermostats calling for heat; I'd say spikes might run 3/4th that, and avg use would be 1/2 (100A, still with everything on). I havent included any 120V loads that could be heavy and concurrent, like a coffee pot, microwave, toaster, dishwasher, washing machine and a hair dryer/curling iron (or disposal or vacuum) all on in the morning.

Then again, a single large on-demand electric water heater alone might eat 150 of those 200A. I wouldn't have one that big as it would require a 320/400A service, and if the HO wants a generator, he's looking at an additional 36kw on top of what would be standard (24kw) for a house that size. or no hot water when the power goes out.

200A for 5,000 sq ft will be plenty for 95% of the people 95% of the time (as will a 20-24kW generator), however 400A or maybe even 600A could be needed for all electric heat, on demand water heaters, the aforementioned loads, well pump, grinder pump, large shop air compressor, a 2nd EV charger, laundry, or kitchen, etc.

Two word answer for Matt: load calculation. and a two word question: flat roof?
 
200-amps for 5,000 sq ft house?

Take away the car charger and add a 40 A spa and 30A sauna and that sounds a lot like my house. Although, I only have 2500 sqft. Plus I have a shop in my garage with plenty of power tools. 200A service works here for me.

I think a load calc will confirm 200 is OK.
 
Keep in mind, the car charger could be a lot more than 30 amps. In the near future there will be a lot of car chargers installed which will significantly increase the electrical load to a typical house.
 
main breaker tripping

main breaker tripping

We quite often are asked to upgrade a house with a 100 amp service to 200 amp. This happens even though the house has had a 100 amp service for 50 years.

Just an observation. I have never had someone call me complaining the main breaker in their panel trips due to overload. Is this a common problem?
 
We quite often are asked to upgrade a house with a 100 amp service to 200 amp. This happens even though the house has had a 100 amp service for 50 years.

Just an observation. I have never had someone call me complaining the main breaker in their panel trips due to overload. Is this a common problem?

I've never seen a resi main or subpanel feed breaker trip from overload either, tho many houses here were 'overpaneled and underwired', which is a ridiculously large service but branch circuits overloaded like crazy. Splitting them up and putting 'em on more breakers is the fix there. There's always one or two circuits in these older homes that have way too much on them.
 
We quite often are asked to upgrade a house with a 100 amp service to 200 amp. This happens even though the house has had a 100 amp service for 50 years.

Just an observation. I have never had someone call me complaining the main breaker in their panel trips due to overload. Is this a common problem?
Trip due to overload? No. I would say rare, because in 35 years, I've never seen it. Usually it's because line side connections have overheated due to poor instal practices.
 
12 hours for a turkey? Don't cook one for me! That is one dried out fowl! Now 12 hours (at 190 °F) for collards, pork butt or ribs.....:p

I do agree two 200 amp panels seems large, but it is done all the time here due to AC loads in the summer and electric strips in winter. Two 10 kW strips (always at least two systems here in two story houses or large footprint ranches) will draw 83 amps in the dead of winter as both will be running in 10 degree temperatures. So, not all the time, but does happen. Add in deep well pump, and more electric appliances (double ovens). Having propane or natural as the heating (air, water, cooking) source drastically drops electric peak needs.

I was glad I installed two panels when I needed to add a 150 amp breaker in one for a large garage/workshop.:D
 
60 amps for pool... Is that including heat?
30 amps for car charger
40- 50 amps for cooking
30 amps for central air
25 amps for electric dryer
5000 square feet general use lighting, Etc

I wouldn't even consider only 200 amp service.
Can't you apply a diversity factor?
 
Yes it is.



I might depending on how much of the appliances and heating are gas or geothermal vs electric.

Pool or spa? A 60A spa is drawing 48A max 15 minutes. Dryer cycles the heating on/off, for 90 min max, the last ~20 minutes of which is cool down w/no heat. Avg range/oven, aside from cooking a thanksgiving turkey for 12 hours and running maybe 3 or the 4 burners for an hour, is going to cycle usually one burner/element for a ~50% duty cycle @ ~20A, 10A overall. Two 4 ton ACs , yeah, 30A, as is the car charger, tho they are unlikely imo to be on a lot at the same time (AC at day, charger at night). Tank type water heater, add another 20A of long, continuous load. OP is in CA in a temperate region; extreme heat or cold weather isn't going to be like Houston, or Buffalo.

What you listed is 185A (and ~205A with electric water heater)if they were all on simultaneously and with thermostats calling for heat; I'd say spikes might run 3/4th that, and avg use would be 1/2 (100A, still with everything on). I havent included any 120V loads that could be heavy and concurrent, like a coffee pot, microwave, toaster, dishwasher, washing machine and a hair dryer/curling iron (or disposal or vacuum) all on in the morning.

Then again, a single large on-demand electric water heater alone might eat 150 of those 200A. I wouldn't have one that big as it would require a 320/400A service, and if the HO wants a generator, he's looking at an additional 36kw on top of what would be standard (24kw) for a house that size. or no hot water when the power goes out.

200A for 5,000 sq ft will be plenty for 95% of the people 95% of the time (as will a 20-24kW generator), however 400A or maybe even 600A could be needed for all electric heat, on demand water heaters, the aforementioned loads, well pump, grinder pump, large shop air compressor, a 2nd EV charger, laundry, or kitchen, etc.

Two word answer for Matt: load calculation. and a two word question: flat roof?

the 60-amps is for a small pool (gas heated) but there is a 50-amp jacuzzi proposed. Water heater is gas but I always run for a 30-amp drier.
Load calcs come out to 185.

Yes flat roof: modern style architecture (not sure I know how to send a pic?)
 
the 60-amps is for a small pool (gas heated) but there is a 50-amp jacuzzi proposed. Water heater is gas but I always run for a 30-amp drier.
Load calcs come out to 185.

Yes flat roof: modern style architecture (not sure I know how to send a pic?)

I doubt a small pool is going to use anywhere 60 amps unless it has a lot of water features. A standard pool in the bay area has a 1.5-2hp circulation pump and a 3/4hp sweep pump. Most pool lighting is LED now but even if its not the load is not much. Total load is probably around 20-25 amps max.
 
Trip due to overload? No. I would say rare, because in 35 years, I've never seen it. Usually it's because line side connections have overheated due to poor instal practices.

only saw it once that I can remember

2 @ 200amp panels, HVAC and water heaters all in same panel

Vacation house, when used in winter customer would arrive, turn up thermostats on 3 heat pumps enough to start strip heat, turn on breakers to water heaters

Although come to think of it was only reading around 180 amps so maybe was poor install
 
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