2014 Disposals on Arc-Fault and GFCI

[donselec]

210.12 of the 2014 Code will require all 15 and 20-amp 120-volt outlets and devices (such as switches) to be on arc-fault protection, and this would include the garbage disposal. Even if it's hard-wired there's still a switch (device). Also if it's cord and plug connected it would have to be GFCI since the outlet is within 6' of the sink. Just wondered if anyone had thoughts or good or bad experience on this one?

 

[jap]

210.12 of the 2014 Code will require all 15 and 20-amp 120-volt outlets and devices (such as switches) to be on arc-fault protection, and this would include the garbage disposal. Even if it's hard-wired there's still a switch (device). Also if it's cord and plug connected it would have to be GFCI since the outlet is within 6' of the sink. Just wondered if anyone had thoughts or good or bad experience on this one?

I'm thinking If that's what's going to be required, then I guess that's what I'll do.

JAP.

 

[PetrosA]

I'm thinking If that's what's going to be required, then I guess that's what I'll do.

JAP.

Regular breaker and receptacle - $10
CAFI breaker and GFCI receptacle - $75

I don't know about you, but I'm starting to feel more and more that I can't just sit back and let stuff like this go without protesting. That's a $65 difference that the customer will have to eat to conform to code changes that NO ONE has proven safer or necessary. I feel like screaming when I read stuff like this. How many people have been electrocuted by their garbage disposals, and how many house fires have started as a result of these circuits?

 

[donselec]

Well it's not only the cost, but also the nuisance tripping, but maybe the disposal motor won't have an effect on the arc-fault. This I don't know yet. Another thing that concerns me is GFCI and arc-fault protection for kitchen refrigerators. How do you explain to your customer after they return from their 2-week vacation that the refrigerator circuit tripped, but it's not your fault and you can't be liable for their lost food. Maybe in a perfect world that would never happen. This I don't know yet either. We'll see when it comes.

 

[jap]

Sounds like a great opportunity to design a different garbage disposal and refrigerator that dont run on electricity. That way one could quit doing electrical work and retire on his inventions.Until one of us is bright enough to do that, I guess we can all just keep on complaining.

 

[kwired]

210.12 of the 2014 Code will require all 15 and 20-amp 120-volt outlets and devices (such as switches) to be on arc-fault protection, and this would include the garbage disposal. Even if it's hard-wired there's still a switch (device). Also if it's cord and plug connected it would have to be GFCI since the outlet is within 6' of the sink. Just wondered if anyone had thoughts or good or bad experience on this one?

I can't say I know the exact wording in the 2014, but in previous editions it was not that a receptacle or a switch needed AFCI protection, it was that a branch circuit with "outlets" in specific rooms needed AFCI protection. That means a switch for an outside light that doesn't require protection, even though located in a room that requires protection for outlets in that room did not need protection. I am guessing this has not changed, though it is getting to the fact that there is not a lot left that doesn't require protection unless it is something other than a 120 volt 15 or 20 amp circuit.

Well it's not only the cost, but also the nuisance tripping, but maybe the disposal motor won't have an effect on the arc-fault. This I don't know yet. Another thing that concerns me is GFCI and arc-fault protection for kitchen refrigerators. How do you explain to your customer after they return from their 2-week vacation that the refrigerator circuit tripped, but it's not your fault and you can't be liable for their lost food. Maybe in a perfect world that would never happen. This I don't know yet either. We'll see when it comes.

I don't see why my installation of a code required device (no matter if I like or dislike the requirement) makes it my fault if it trips and their refrigerator is full of spoiled food. Even if there was no requirement for said device, there are still other reasons for a circuit to fail and the refrigerator gets warm, and again may not be my fault.

 

[donselec]

I can't say I know the exact wording in the 2014, but in previous editions it was not that a receptacle or a switch needed AFCI protection, it was that a branch circuit with "outlets" in specific rooms needed AFCI protection. That means a switch for an outside light that doesn't require protection, even though located in a room that requires protection for outlets in that room did not need protection. I am guessing this has not changed, though it is getting to the fact that there is not a lot left that doesn't require protection unless it is something other than a 120 volt 15 or 20 amp circuit.

Well that used to be, but the new wording in 210.12(A) is "branch circuits supplying outlets or devices" in certain rooms, which would include switches.

As for the spoiled food in the refrigerator, technically you're right, but it's very difficult to explain that to a customer who just paid you to have his addition or new house wired or his kitchen remodeled & rewired. I guess arc-fault circuits with motors on them are supposed to work okay, but I'm a little leery. The GFCI on the refrig. should be okay, they've been doing that in garages for some time now. We'll see when the time comes if there's any issues. Meantime we'll hope the arc-fault breaker manufacturers have given motors some thought at least.

 

[donselec]

And what about the electronic igniter on the gas stove on an arc-fault circuit? Maybe it's just me. I'll have to see that work for myself though. Ha.

 

[donselec]

Sounds like a great opportunity to design a different garbage disposal and refrigerator that dont run on electricity. That way one could quit doing electrical work and retire on his inventions.Until one of us is bright enough to do that, I guess we can all just keep on complaining.

Sounds like a plan

 

[GoldDigger]

Fortunately most of the ovens that I have seen use glow bars that turn on the gas valve mechanically once they are hot or spark igniters that will time out the gas valve if they do not sense flame.

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[donselec]

Fortunately most of the ovens that I have seen use glow bars that turn on the gas valve mechanically once they are hot or spark igniters that will time out the gas valve if they do not sense flame.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

Well most ovens are 240-volt and wouldn't require arc-fault protection. My GE gas stove has a spark igniter that's used to light the burners. I'm wondering if an arc-fault breaker would recognize that little spark as okay or not. Maybe I'll try it sometime.

So disposals, refrigerators and 120-volt cooktop spark igniters on arc-fault protection. What could go wrong?

 

[GoldDigger]

The igniters generally use a solid state circuit to generate the spark, so if the input filtering is good enough the arc fault unit will not be aware of it.
In particular the arc current will not go through zero at a 120 Hz rate.

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[donselec]

The igniters generally use a solid state circuit to generate the spark, so if the input filtering is good enough the arc fault unit will not be aware of it.
In particular the arc current will not go through zero at a 120 Hz rate.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

That sounds good. Also since the gas stove outlet doesn't have to be on the small appliance circuit, there are probably already places where it's on an arc-fault protected circuit.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

Regular breaker and receptacle - $10
CAFI breaker and GFCI receptacle - $75

I don't know about you, but I'm starting to feel more and more that I can't just sit back and let stuff like this go without protesting. That's a $65 difference that the customer will have to eat to conform to code changes that NO ONE has proven safer or necessary. I feel like screaming when I read stuff like this. How many people have been electrocuted by their garbage disposals, and how many house fires have started as a result of these circuits?

Agree 100%. If it's not broke, don't fix it.

 

[wirebender]

And what about the electronic igniter on the gas stove on an arc-fault circuit? Maybe it's just me. I'll have to see that work for myself though. Ha.

I've put several gas insta-hot water heaters on AFCI and so far no problem.

 

[KnobnTube]

Doesnt add up with code descriptions in 2011

Doesnt add up with code descriptions in 2011

210.12 of the 2014 Code will require all 15 and 20-amp 120-volt outlets and devices (such as switches) to be on arc-fault protection, and this would include the garbage disposal. Even if it's hard-wired there's still a switch (device). Also if it's cord and plug connected it would have to be GFCI since the outlet is within 6' of the sink. Just wondered if anyone had thoughts or good or bad experience on this one?

I do agree on the AFCI requirement, no problem understanding that part. It is clear on outlets and devices in the kitchen requiring AFCI

I do not completely agree on the GFCI just because it is within 6' of a sink.

In the 2011, that rule was in effect for any non kitchen sinks already.
By their description, it has nothing to do with under cabinet receptacles.
They even have a nice picture/diagram to show the area around the sink.

Here is the description:
(7) Sinks ? located in areas other than kitchens where receptacles
are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside
edge of the sink

Recognizing that sinks in kitchens are not the only location
where a ground-fault shock hazard exists, this requirement
covers all other sinks in a dwelling. This requirement does
not limit the GFCI requirement to only receptacles serving
counter top surfaces; rather, it covers all 125-volt, 15- and
20-ampere receptacles that are within 6 ft of any point along
the outside edge of the sink

Was anyone required to use GFCI on a disposal in a Bar sink for the 2011 code?



All IMHO

 

[kwired]

Was anyone required to use GFCI on a disposal in a Bar sink for the 2011 code?

Going strictly by wording in the NEC it should be GFCI protected, but I can see many letting that one be unprotected because of the similarities to a kitchen installation.

 

[KnobnTube]

What exactly?

What exactly?

Going strictly by wording in the NEC it should be GFCI protected, but I can see many letting that one be unprotected because of the similarities to a kitchen installation.

Please elaborate, what wording are you referencing?

Did you read and look at the pictures in the 2011?

 

[kwired]

Please elaborate, what wording are you referencing?

Did you read and look at the pictures in the 2011?

What pictures? May be pictures in the NEC handbook, but those are part of the authors commentary and not actual code content.

As far as wording read 210.8(A) subparts 6 and 7 in particular.

subpart 7 requires all receptacles within six feet of a sink other than those in a kitchen to be GFCI protected. That means a disposer cord and plug connected in a wet bar sink is likely within 6 feet and will need protection.

 

[donselec]

I've been required in the past to put the disposal in a wet bar on a GFCI if it was cord & plug connected. Now in 2014 that will include the kitchen.