2014 Disposals on Arc-Fault and GFCI

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The proposal was from GE and is based on end of life fires in dishwashers. The CMP chair is from Washington and he commented the other day about the GE presentation to the code panel. The NEMA rep stated this appliances are made to a product standard and perhaps the change needs to be made there.
I have a friend who does appliance repair and he says the mfg use a small gage wire, light contact rated relays and this all leads to fires in appliances.
About a year ago there was a great article in consumer reports on appliance fires, dishwashers and microwaves would start fires when turned off.

Think back to the range we had growing up. It used heavy gage wire, relays, switches and they would last forever.
 
tom baker said:
The proposal was from GE and is based on end of life fires in dishwashers. The CMP chair is from Washington and he commented the other day about the GE presentation to the code panel. The NEMA rep stated this appliances are made to a product standard and perhaps the change needs to be made there.
I have a friend who does appliance repair and he says the mfg use a small gage wire, light contact rated relays and this all leads to fires in appliances.
About a year ago there was a great article in consumer reports on appliance fires, dishwashers and microwaves would start fires when turned off.

Think back to the range we had growing up. It used heavy gage wire, relays, switches and they would last forever.
Click to expand...

"The good old days." When things were built to last, now they're built to fulfill the demand quota. I think it makes a certain amount of sense though, like you say; but will the motors in refrigerators, dishwashers, and particularly disposals, even if in good condition, cause nuisance tripping of the arc-fault circuit breakers? This I don't know.
 
So, looks like the end result is this:

Because the switch is an outlet in the kitchen, it is required to be on an AFCI, and if the disposal is not hard wired, but plug and cord connected to a receptacle, the receptacle will be GFCI.

So any disposal in the kitchen sink cabinet area must be AFCI and GFCI protected.

Pretty ridiculous to say the least.

Looks like all mine will be hardwired only.
 
KnobnTube said:
So, looks like the end result is this:

Because the switch is an outlet in the kitchen, it is required to be on an AFCI, and if the disposal is not hard wired, but plug and cord connected to a receptacle, the receptacle will be GFCI.

So any disposal in the kitchen sink cabinet area must be AFCI and GFCI protected.

Pretty ridiculous to say the least.

Looks like all mine will be hardwired only.
Click to expand...

Not only that, now that ALL outlets in the Kitchen require AFCI, all of the GFCI receptacles will be AFCI as well.

Costs are just getting worse.

So the fly by night and the local Handyman will be busy, not us.

The manufacturers just upped their sales in GFCI and AFCI receptacles since you can only use 1 breaker, lol.
 
Costs ARE getting worse, and I suspect it will lead to a situation where manufacturers may have to produce AFCI main breakers. Sure, it will be inconvenient, but if the average new home requires 30 AFCI breakers at a cost between $1100-$1600, that inconvenience may not seem so intolerable.
 
KnobnTube said:
Not only that, now that ALL outlets in the Kitchen require AFCI, all of the GFCI receptacles will be AFCI as well.

Costs are just getting worse.

So the fly by night and the local Handyman will be busy, not us.

The manufacturers just upped their sales in GFCI and AFCI receptacles since you can only use 1 breaker, lol.
Click to expand...

Before you start on the AFGF breakers, first you have to find them, and second have to pay the enormous price.
It is not cost feasible at this time since the manufacturers are squeezing our squirrel jewels till they bleed.
 
tom baker said:
The proposal was from GE and is based on end of life fires in dishwashers. The CMP chair is from Washington and he commented the other day about the GE presentation to the code panel. The NEMA rep stated this appliances are made to a product standard and perhaps the change needs to be made there.
I have a friend who does appliance repair and he says the mfg use a small gage wire, light contact rated relays and this all leads to fires in appliances.
About a year ago there was a great article in consumer reports on appliance fires, dishwashers and microwaves would start fires when turned off.

Think back to the range we had growing up. It used heavy gage wire, relays, switches and they would last forever.
Click to expand...
Most dishwashers I have seen in the past 15-20 years don't even have those components you mentioned inside of an enclosure. If they just enclosed them maybe that would reduce the fire risk, by keeping the failure within a confined space, otherwise over time you get a bunch of lint/dust bunnies under the appliance and when something catastrophic happens it maybe spreads by starting the lint/dust bunnies on fire.
 
kwired said:
Most dishwashers I have seen in the past 15-20 years don't even have those components you mentioned inside of an enclosure. If they just enclosed them maybe that would reduce the fire risk, by keeping the failure within a confined space, otherwise over time you get a bunch of lint/dust bunnies under the appliance and when something catastrophic happens it maybe spreads by starting the lint/dust bunnies on fire.
Click to expand...

Lets just consider this closed.

The site always tends to creep away from any original questions.

No sense in this becoming just a conversation on anything.

Thanks
 
KnobnTube said:
...
Because the switch is an outlet in the kitchen, ...
Click to expand...
A switch is not an outlet and is not installed at an outlet...to include switches in the AFCI requirement, the 2014 code added the words "or devices" following the word outlet in 210.12(A).
 
KnobnTube said:
Lets just consider this closed.

The site always tends to creep away from any original questions.

No sense in this becoming just a conversation on anything.

Thanks
Click to expand...
Why do you think I was off topic?

The OP is about AFCI and GFCI protection in the kitchen - maybe a little more specifically the disposal.

Another person mentioned what was possibly a factor in driving the changes in 2014 - appliances possibly starting fires.

My comment on a reason why the fires are possibly starting and a possible alternate solution isn't on topic?

Maybe is veering off topic slightly, but certainly not the same as if I would have gave current weather conditions where I am located.
 
kwired said:
Why do you think I was off topic?

The OP is about AFCI and GFCI protection in the kitchen - maybe a little more specifically the disposal.

Another person mentioned what was possibly a factor in driving the changes in 2014 - appliances possibly starting fires.

My comment on a reason why the fires are possibly starting and a possible alternate solution isn't on topic?

Maybe is veering off topic slightly, but certainly not the same as if I would have gave current weather conditions where I am located.
Click to expand...

Somehow my responses have ended up on a totally different question, sorry.

Got jumbled somewhere on the pages, no idea of what happened
 
PetrosA said:
Costs ARE getting worse, and I suspect it will lead to a situation where manufacturers may have to produce AFCI main breakers. Sure, it will be inconvenient, but if the average new home requires 30 AFCI breakers at a cost between $1100-$1600, that inconvenience may not seem so intolerable.
Click to expand...

oh, joy. then any nuisance trip simply shuts down the whole house?

and service upgrades to older houses that have three wire home runs...
those will require rewiring, at least to the extent of adding another run
so you don't have to share the neutral, yes?

the chief inspector for a city near here and i spent an hour trying to
get an AFCI to trip one morning, just out of curiosity.

there are two things that will make it trip for sure..... the test button
on the device, and the test button on the Ideal AFCI tester.

with a light bulb providing the load, i tried separating wires to produce an
arc under load..... i got a pretty decent arc going, could have gotten my
merit badge in fire making with it, for maybe 15 seconds, and that AFCI
was blissfully unaware of it.

i suspect the major result of the AFCI debacle will be to provide a flourishing
gray market in bootleg AFCI's, that don't do anything other than trip when
the test button is pressed. they will be made in china, just the same way
the bootleg circuit breakers are made now, and in the same factories,
by the same people.

usually when any regulatory body sets out to do something, the result is
the exact opposite of what the stated intention is.

and i think the main goal of the AFCI is to provide a generous bottom line
for NEMA manufacturers. that's the goal, not the stated intention, of course.
 
KnobnTube said:
So, looks like the end result is this:

Because the switch is an outlet in the kitchen, it is required to be on an AFCI, and if the disposal is not hard wired, but plug and cord connected to a receptacle, the receptacle will be GFCI.

So any disposal in the kitchen sink cabinet area must be AFCI and GFCI protected.

Pretty ridiculous to say the least.

Looks like all mine will be hardwired only.
Click to expand...

I believe the new code spells out hardwired and cord-n-plug. So hardwiring will still need the GFCI.
 
Fulthrotl said:
...
with a light bulb providing the load, i tried separating wires to produce an
arc under load..... i got a pretty decent arc going, could have gotten my
merit badge in fire making with it, for maybe 15 seconds, and that AFCI
was blissfully unaware of it.
...
Click to expand...
You need a bigger light bulb...as far as I know the AFCI does not even look for a series arc unless the current exceeds 5 amps and does not look for a paralle arc unless the current exceeds 75 amps.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
You need a bigger light bulb...as far as I know the AFCI does not even look for a series arc unless the current exceeds 5 amps and does not look for a paralle arc unless the current exceeds 75 amps.
Click to expand...
And from my understanding the "glowing connection" probably starts more fires than other arcing conditions, yet an AFCI will not detect a glowing connection:roll:
 
Fulthrotl said:
the chief inspector for a city near here and i spent an hour trying to
get an AFCI to trip one morning, just out of curiosity.

there are two things that will make it trip for sure..... the test button
on the device, and the test button on the Ideal AFCI tester.

with a light bulb providing the load, i tried separating wires to produce an
arc under load..... i got a pretty decent arc going, could have gotten my
merit badge in fire making with it, for maybe 15 seconds, and that AFCI
was blissfully unaware of it.
Click to expand...

There was a guy on Youtube doing a benchtest similar to that on an Arc Fault Breaker. You guys will never get an Arc Fault to trip like that.
You have to go home,pull your service truck in the garage, go inside, take a shower, and just sit down to eat dinner with your family and hear about their day,,,, thats when the call wlll come in that an Arc Fault has tripped,,, not when your sitting there looking at it.
 
kwired said:
And from my understanding the "glowing connection" probably starts more fires than other arcing conditions, yet an AFCI will not detect a glowing connection:roll:
Click to expand...
The best chance of preventing a fire from a poor connection is the GFP function of some GFCIs. The heat from the "glowing connection" will often melt enough insulation to cause a ground fault before it causes a fire. The GFP function is not required by the AFCI standard and at least one manufacturer has eliminated it.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
The best chance of preventing a fire from a poor connection is the GFP function of some GFCIs. The heat from the "glowing connection" will often melt enough insulation to cause a ground fault before it causes a fire. The GFP function is not required by the AFCI standard and at least one manufacturer has eliminated it.
Click to expand...


I would have had little problem with increased GFCI requirements in the NEC and no AFCI requirements, especially after hearing all the controversy that has been brought up over AFCI ever since they were introduced to NEC. Nobody really knows if they will do what they claim they will do, and those that claim they do know can't seem to prove it to others. The GFCI has proven it's benefits fairly well.
 
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