2017 GFCI protection on receptacles for which breakers do not exist - Square D QO

[mbrooke]

I was watching that same video an hour ago but not clear exactly what hatches it on. If it is really the bi-metal strip, then it's trouble because it may trip at 80A instead of 100A because of possible deformed pole as you commented.

Tomorrow I'll take apart an old breaker to be familiarized how the latching is done and how it is connected to the bi-metal strip and if it is separate, how it latches on without the bi-metal help.

Thanks for the hint.

But keep in mind it could be anything- I was just guessing.

 

[tersh]

But keep in mind it could be anything- I was just guessing.

I hope someone with the same exact model can try it. Who knows. Maybe it is Siemens proprietary nano latching mechanism (to avoid false turning on). Also what does an x-ray image of a breaker looks like. There are many centers like conference building with x-ray machine at entrance. One could put it and quickly take photo to see how the inside looks like. I don't want to teardown the Siemens and then learn the magnetic and bi-metal still working perfectly. A new one costs $45.

 

[mbrooke]

I hope someone with the same exact model can try it. Who knows. Maybe it is Siemens proprietary nano latching mechanism (to avoid false turning on). Also what does an x-ray image of a breaker looks like. There are many centers like conference building with x-ray machine at entrance. One could put it and quickly take photo to see how the inside looks like. I don't want to teardown the Siemens and then learn the magnetic and bi-metal still working perfectly. A new one costs $45.

That would be an option, but I don't know how you would go about doing it. I know they've X-rayed tons of none living stuff.

 

[tersh]

That would be an option, but I don't know how you would go about doing it. I know they've X-rayed tons of none living stuff.

Say, have you seen any teardown of a GFCI breaker? I wanna see how it looks like inside and know where is the sense coil and solenoid and magnetic strip and stuff and how they function together. I'm so familiar with GFCI receptacle circuit I could draw it in memory. But not a GFCI breaker.

 

[kwired]

I hope someone with the same exact model can try it. Who knows. Maybe it is Siemens proprietary nano latching mechanism (to avoid false turning on). Also what does an x-ray image of a breaker looks like. There are many centers like conference building with x-ray machine at entrance. One could put it and quickly take photo to see how the inside looks like. I don't want to teardown the Siemens and then learn the magnetic and bi-metal still working perfectly. A new one costs $45.

Unless you have ready access to x ray equipment I would think that would cost you more than a new breaker, just tear it apart man.

 

[tersh]

Here is one example:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGFnooeA6Iw

I watched the above video again and again as well as trying to find other references. The following is from the above video.



The latching is not directly on the bi-metal strip but the catch beside it (in blue arrow). So even if the catch is bent, the bi-metal strip would still be straight, it shouldn't affect the tripping amperage, isn't it?

I also found these good references (needs older explorer for the java (or so) to work).

http://www.zlan.com/brk_info.htm

https://electronics.howstuffworks.com/circuit-breaker2.htm

I found an old breaker but needs to drill the 4 small bolts to open it up. I'll see if I have time tomorrow. I need to decide if the Siemens main breaker is still useable. Any breaker experts here who can help?​

 

[tersh]

I watched the above video again and again as well as trying to find other references. The following is from the above video.

View attachment 22188

The latching is not directly on the bi-metal strip but the catch beside it (in blue arrow). So even if the catch is bent, the bi-metal strip would still be straight, it shouldn't affect the tripping amperage, isn't it?

I also found these good references (needs older explorer for the java (or so) to work).

http://www.zlan.com/brk_info.htm

https://electronics.howstuffworks.com/circuit-breaker2.htm

I found an old breaker but needs to drill the 4 small bolts to open it up. I'll see if I have time tomorrow. I need to decide if the Siemens main breaker is still useable. Any breaker experts here who can help?​

But in the video I noticed the catch was already engaged even in the off position, so other component may be involved. Any idea what else it could be.

So as not to be off topic. The Siemens one pole GFCI breaker 20A is the cheapest available.

https://www.amazon.com/Siemens-QF12...sr=8-1&keywords=siemens+single+pole+gfci&th=1

Since we don't have any tear down of GFCI breakers anywhere. Maybe someone can share a teardown of it? lol.

OP. Since you can't find 60A version of it. Won't NEC allow 2-pole GFCI breakers? you can easily use the 120v output of it and the sense coil still works (I tried it last year).

 

[MAC702]

You are not going to want to install a breaker that the next guy has to LEARN how to turn it on.

 

[hbiss]

How is it that the OP asks a simple question about the Code requiring something that isn't available and this guy Tersh jumps in and it turns into pages and pages of nothing to do with the OP? :?

-Hal

 

[tersh]

How is it that the OP asks a simple question about the Code requiring something that isn't available and this guy Tersh jumps in and it turns into pages and pages of nothing to do with the OP? :?

-Hal

Sorry. I just want to see how others connect their GFCI breakers in the main panel. I only see these installed in spa in the internet in single enclosure only. So wonder how others do it so to learn.

You are right it's about the Code and I won't get off-topic. So to get it back on topic. When will be the next major NEC Code update. Also how often people really put 2-pole GFCI breakers in the main panel. I've been asking the past 5 months and no one else seems to be doing it. That's why I'm wondering if there is something wrong with it. And also why I'm interested in the OP question. Thanks.

 

[kwired]

You are not going to want to install a breaker that the next guy has to LEARN how to turn it on.

I have seen owners/users that don't even know how to turn on one that is working correctly

Sorry. I just want to see how others connect their GFCI breakers in the main panel. I only see these installed in spa in the internet in single enclosure only. So wonder how others do it so to learn.

You are right it's about the Code and I won't get off-topic. So to get it back on topic. When will be the next major NEC Code update. Also how often people really put 2-pole GFCI breakers in the main panel. I've been asking the past 5 months and no one else seems to be doing it. That's why I'm wondering if there is something wrong with it. And also why I'm interested in the OP question. Thanks.

NEC is published every three years. I believe it is too late for any input for changes for the 2020 edition, though they likely have not yet come up with final copies of every change that might be made but are likely close with a majority of them.

50 amp 2 pole GFCI is probably the most popular two pole because it is commonly needed for spa's. Though 2 pole 20 and 30 are sort of common enough they are usually readily available at electrical supply houses.

Not a lot of things out there require GFCI protection if direct wired instead of cord and plug connected, and there is a lot of 15/20 amp 120 volt receptacles compared to other other ratings driving the need for 15/20 amp single pole (or the common GFCI receptacle) to be most commonly demanded GFCI devices.

 

[tersh]

I have seen owners/users that don't even know how to turn on one that is working correctly

See complete teardown of the Siemens main breaker unit at https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=196215

NEC is published every three years. I believe it is too late for any input for changes for the 2020 edition, though they likely have not yet come up with final copies of every change that might be made but are likely close with a majority of them.

50 amp 2 pole GFCI is probably the most popular two pole because it is commonly needed for spa's. Though 2 pole 20 and 30 are sort of common enough they are usually readily available at electrical supply houses.

Not a lot of things out there require GFCI protection if direct wired instead of cord and plug connected, and there is a lot of 15/20 amp 120 volt receptacles compared to other other ratings driving the need for 15/20 amp single pole (or the common GFCI receptacle) to be most commonly demanded GFCI devices.

Do you think what Mike Holt said that it was possible whole house GFCI protection could exist in the future is true? This way we don't have to see many rules where to put it: Simply put it in the entire House. In fact. I am doing just that. My Siemens GFCI breakers protect everything now except the lights and air conditioners.

To the OP. in case you add the single or double GFCI breaker in your main panel. Can you please test if there is spacing between the spring clips and the bus bar? What brand do you plan to get? Square D, Siemens? What are all the available GFCI breaker brands?

Siemens Engineering told me it's normal. They wrote: "

"Sorry for the delay. Engineering has received new breakers from stock, which, when installed are configured the same as you have shown in the photos you sent with the angle on the connections. Engineering has tested & indicate contact is sufficient for proper function of the breakers."​

I want to know if the Square D GFIC breakers or other brands are like this too.

 

[Little Bill]

The OP has not replied for a while and I think the original question has been addressed. The thread has wondered so far off course that it's confusing as to what the subject even is. I'm closing this thread and if anyone, including the OP, needs it re-addressed, a new thread can be started. Hopefully one that can stay on topic!