2017 NEC second draft

[ActionDave]

I'm glad the AFCI rules were rolled back from the original proposal.

I wanted the NEC to go all in. That's the best way to reveal these things for the fraud they are.

 

[Smart $]

I'm interested in seeing the language they use for saying that, but don't have a login. Is it still the language they had in 2014?

Not the same wording as 2014.

(B) Increased in Size. If ungrounded conductors are increased in size to account for voltage drop, wire-type equipment grounding conductors shall be increased in size. The increase in size shall be at least in the same proportion as the increase in the size of the ungrounded conductors using their circular mil area.

 

[Carultch]

Not the same wording as 2014.

Well, it is quite an improvement in my opinion, as it now gets straight to the point of the intent of the rule.

So now you no longer have to upsize EGC, if you've upsized the main conductors because you had left-over wire that is larger than necessary, kicking around from a previous job. Or if you've prepared for 60C terminations in your design worst-case-scenario, and end up with 75C terminations as is the industry norm. Or if you have equipment that specifically calls for larger than necessary wire.

 

[Smart $]

Well, it is quite an improvement in my opinion, as it now gets straight to the point of the intent of the rule.

So now you no longer have to upsize EGC, if you've upsized the main conductors because you had left-over wire that is larger than necessary, kicking around from a previous job. Or if you've prepared for 60C terminations in your design worst-case-scenario, and end up with 75C terminations as is the industry norm. Or if you have equipment that specifically calls for larger than necessary wire.

That's correct. No more "or if's". Only for voltage drop. It's back to the intent of the original version... with the exception that the original version only required upsizing where a wire-type EGC was required. That is, you originally didn't have to upsize if you used a metallic raceway wiring method.

 

[wwhitney]

That is, you originally didn't have to upsize if you used a metallic raceway wiring method.

Are you saying that under the older wording, if you had both a wire-type EGC and a metallic raceway EGC, you didn't need to upsize the wire-type EGC?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Smart $]

Are you saying that under the older wording, if you had both a wire-type EGC and a metallic raceway EGC, you didn't need to upsize the wire-type EGC?

Cheers, Wayne

Yes, but IIRC we're talking like back in the '70's.

 

[peter d]

I wanted the NEC to go all in. That's the best way to reveal these things for the fraud they are.

I agree, but just the expansion to kitchens and the issues I've observed with AFCI's tripping with certain appliances is enough, IMO. Still, you're right that it would have really upped that ante if AFCI's started tripping with furnaces and other equipment.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

That's correct. No more "or if's". Only for voltage drop. It's back to the intent of the original version... with the exception that the original version only required upsizing where a wire-type EGC was required. That is, you originally didn't have to upsize if you used a metallic raceway wiring method.

So if I have 10 awg conductor for de-rating purposes and install a 20 amp overcurrent protective device then I can use a #12 equipment grounding conductor?

 

[Sierrasparky]

So if I have 10 awg conductor for de-rating purposes and install a 20 amp overcurrent protective device then I can use a #12 equipment grounding conductor?

Yes, but IIRC we're talking like back in the '70's.

Are you saying that under the older wording, if you had both a wire-type EGC and a metallic raceway EGC, you didn't need to upsize the wire-type EGC?

Cheers, Wayne

That's correct. No more "or if's". Only for voltage drop. It's back to the intent of the original version... with the exception that the original version only required upsizing where a wire-type EGC was required. That is, you originally didn't have to upsize if you used a metallic raceway wiring method.

Ok , so if you are using a cable size 8 NM and upsize to 6nm . It won't work as #8 and #6 use the same size #10 if I recall correctly.

 

[Carultch]

Ok , so if you are using a cable size 8 NM and upsize to 6nm . It won't work as #8 and #6 use the same size #10 if I recall correctly.

8 NM is built with 40A circuits in mind, while 6 NM is built with 50 or 60A circuits in mind. All of these use a #10 EGC by default, so a #6 NM with a #8 EGC simply isn't a readily available product.

A solution is that you can put in a 60A breaker (if allowed by your equipment), and then the #10 EGC is sufficient.

 

[Smart $]

So if I have 10 awg conductor for de-rating purposes and install a 20 amp overcurrent protective device then I can use a #12 equipment grounding conductor?

Yep.

 

[Smart $]

Ok , so if you are using a cable size 8 NM and upsize to 6nm . It won't work as #8 and #6 use the same size #10 if I recall correctly.

Under the prospective wording, depends on the reason for the upsize... which you did not clarify. If the reason is not for voltage drop, yes it will work.

 

[iwire]

Under the prospective wording, depends on the reason for the upsize... which you did not clarify. If the reason is not for voltage drop, yes it will work.

It would work when his area adopts the 2017 NEC, until then no regardless of the claimed reason.

 

[Smart $]

It would work when his area adopts the 2017 NEC, until then no regardless of the claimed reason.

That's essentially what this means...

Under the prospective wording...

 

[iwire]

That's essentially what this means...

​

If you say so.

 

[George Stolz]

So if I have 10 awg conductor for de-rating purposes and install a 20 amp overcurrent protective device then I can use a #12 equipment grounding conductor?

That is true under the 2014. Ampacity is not the number shown on Table 310.15(B)(16). The definition of ampacity is based upon the conditions of use. Therefore, a 10 AWG conductor on a 20A circuit in a raceway with 12 other conductors gets a 12 AWG EGC - the conductor was not upsized, it was sized correctly according to the conditions of its use.