2020- 230.71(B) & 225.30(B) - Effect on homes with 2 - 200 amp panels

[hillbilly1]

Yes. The easy way is to put one on each side of the meter. But some POCOs prohibit putting one on each side of the meter can due to interfering with underground feeds.

That’s the way I have always done them, haven’t had the poco fuss yet, but there’s always that one! LOL!

 

[hillbilly1]

Lowes for years used two 1200 amp (I believe) MLO ILine panelboards with less than three mains each, so I take it this is no longer allowed? Never did like services done that way because it complicated temporary generator connections during storm duty. I know they did it that way to avoid ground fault mains.

 

[tom baker]

Never was compliant.

First you can't have MLO panel as the first thing you hit at the house, must have 1-6 mains in or on the house, short distance away may be accepted by some but is not in the NEC wording.

Second if your main(s) are away from the house then the house is supplied by a feeder(s). 225 part II is the applicable code here and 225.30 only permits one feeder to supply a separate building prior to 2020. 2020 it has moved (B) content and replaced it with wording that does allow multiple feeders if they all originate from same panel, switchboard, other gear, but you would still need a main at the house on each of those feeders.

Washington State allows multiple feeders to a building, as long as they are grouped. Issue was some POCOs required meter & main at the head of the drive, with a 400 amp service that requires 400 amp feeder disconnect. Washington rule allows two 200 amp feeders as 200 amp p panels are common so have good price point

 

[david]

I'm currently working my way through MH's change book and videos. They (Brian) talk about the effects of the new changes on the smaller operations that typically install a 320 meter/main with 2 - 200 amp breakers feeding 2 - 200 amps panels.

That practice will not be code compliant as 2020 gets adopted.

This is a typical installation for me.

I'm trying to mentally work my way through how to handle this change.
How would you do a code compliant installation where you need 2 - 200 amp panels?

My reference to 225.30(B) is when the meter/main is located away from the residence and I'll have 2 feeders (4-wire) going to the residence to feed the 2 panels.

do you need the service disconnects at the meter location?

 

[kwired]

Sorry but no! The AHJ can call anything they want service equipment but if is on the utility side of the demarcation point only the name in the National Electrical Safety Code (NESC) has any legal effect on what it is for code enforcement purposes. Do keep in mind that the enforcement of the NESC is the exclusive province of the State's utility regulating agency. I have never encountered any electric utility that will allow me to touch anything that they install or maintain.

Side observation: What I have seen in many places is a utility owned pole at the property line or in an easement that supports the utility end of what is technically a service drop; in spite of it looking exactly the same as the rest of the POCO lateral: which extends to, what many rural utilities call, a yard pole. Yard poles are customer owned even though they MAY look like all of the rest of the poles on that line. I have also seen utility owned rod operated pole-top switches on the last POCO owned pole. At the bottom of the Yard Pole there was often a Current Transformer (CT) type meter. From the top of the yard pole the individual drops extended to service equipment which was mounted on or in each building. The other arrangement which is becoming more common is for an underground Service Lateral from the last utility owned pole to come up to a Meter Mains assembly or to metered conductors in a trough supplying multiple disconnects. The feeders from those 1 to 6; but usually one more than there are buildings; then go underground, or even overhead via a Yard Pole, to the Building Disconnecting Means at the individual structures. The additional Service Disconnecting Means, over the number of structures served by the other feeders, is the one that supplies the water pump that is also used for "First Aid Firefighting."

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Tom Horne

I understand what you are saying but at same time but at same time it don't seem to quite work as you said around here.

Yard pole - customers do pay for plus equipment that POCO mounts on it. Upgrades - POCO usually installs new equipment and leaves the old behind. If there is another customer that is interested in the old equipment they might give them some credit and take it or they may tell a customer about someone that may still have said used equipment but in general they just leave it behind anymore. They will install new or used equipment, some cases it isn't even in the greatest shape. Can't tell you how many limited load services there are for pasture wells that pretty much just supply a well and maybe a 120 volt receptacle and that is it that have 60+ year old meter/breaker or pullout fuses that needed to be trashed instead of reused.

If customer wants they can hire contractor like me to put in their meter pole and equipment but generally will cost more then what POCO does charge so POCO does nearly all of them.

Our inspectors don't consider this meter pole disconnect to be the service disconnecting means, and never did before NEC required EGC's with all outside feeders either. Reason being that disconnect can and often does get changed with no permits or inspections and it may or may not be replaced with something that has overcurrent protection. A pretty common thing POCO offers is a unit with meter and DPDT non fused switch. Gives a real convenient place to connect a standby generator. I have one myself as POCO can provide it for less than I could purchase my own 200 amp manual transfer switch, plus is all in one unit and looks much nicer than adding the MTS to what would have otherwise been on the pole.

Other thing that happens is farm place originally had 200 amp fused disconnect on meter pole, they added some farm load and now want 400 amp service. Same type transfer switch I mentioned above is available in 400 amp version and majority of those usually end up with that - no overcurrrent protection in what might have been considered service disconnect before the changes.

A lot of my farm services of 480/277 - for 200 amp or less they used to put in a fused disconnect, but in recent years is usually a non fused disconnect now, or they even replace a failed fused with non fused anymore. If it is over 200 amps most of what I have done over the past severa years I have been installing conductor to base of their transformer pole or the padmount, they will finish the run up a pole though with my excess conductor and raceway and fittings I need to provide, and I am running other end to my own service disconnecting means of my choice and that I provided.