2020 NEC AFCI

[ptonsparky]

A number of class action lawsuits fizzeled out before they ever entered a courtroom Hal

~RJ~

Any common basis as to why they fizzled?

 

[romex jockey]

Any common basis as to why they fizzled?

deeper pockets pton

they all realized they were not only going up against a billion $$$ industry, they'd be taking on the CSPC and UL along w/NEMA


~RJ~

 

[ptonsparky]

I wonder how many detractors of AFCI's have actually experienced nuisance tripping. I for one am absolutely convinced that the original arc fault circuit interrupter and the more advanced combination arc fault circuit interrupter were huge advancements and that the combination GFCI/CAFCI requirement will one of the greatest advancements to date in residential electrical safety protection.

I recently had dealings with a real estate investor who had purchased a 1978 home for rental that had been owned for years by a do-it-yourself "handyman". There were many obvious electrical conditions that led me to worry about hidden concerns. I felt there were two options for the owner to consider - either trace every circuit in the home and open every device and junction box (hoping none were buried behind drywall) or install a modern distribution panel with combination GFCI/CAFCI circuit breakers. I was very concerned that there were likely areas where connections behind the drywall may not be in junction boxes and that the only way to be absolutely sure would be to strip the walls and ceilings, certainly not an option financially.

I'll admit to a prejudice that grew out of having recently watched as my son and his wife and children stood by helplessly seeing their 1976 home burn to the ground as a result of an electric fire. They lost everything they owned.

The investor took my advice and elected to go with the new panel and combo breakers. Yes, some issues arose right away, but on 3 circuits only. These were traced down, aided by the sequential light signals that allowed the causes to be narrowed down. Primarily, they were combined neutrals in various boxes, but the point is the home is now safe. Ground faults? Covered. Arc faults? Covered.

I do not believe this is a result of lobbying, it is a result of dramatic advancements in technology that any thinking person should at least consider as life-saving achievements. Will some individuals have to sharpen their skills? Perhaps, but those who find they must should have sharpened them ages ago. I wonder how many "nuisance trips" have turned out to be the result of loose terminations? How many electricians carry (and use) torque screwdrivers? Thank goodness for the engineers, manufacturers and the NEC for the CAFCI and the combination GFCI/CAFCI circuit breaker.

Good luck with the loose termination detections. The biggest disappointment for me was to find out AFCIs do nothing in that area. Zilch. Nada.

 

[hbiss]

deeper pockets pton

they all realized they were not only going up against a billion $$$ industry, they'd be taking on the CSPC and UL along w/NEMA


~RJ~

Maybe they need to take aim at the shill in this whole scam who has the least deep pockets- the NEC and NFPA. Make them remove AFCI references and the market will dry up like a puddle in the middle of the Sahara. It's also the only way for the manufacturers to save face and gracefully bow out without attracting lawsuits themselves.

-Hal

 

[mbrooke]

I wonder how many detractors of AFCI's have actually experienced nuisance tripping. I for one am absolutely convinced that the original arc fault circuit interrupter and the more advanced combination arc fault circuit interrupter were huge advancements and that the combination GFCI/CAFCI requirement will one of the greatest advancements to date in residential electrical safety protection.

Its not just nuisance tripping. Anyone with in depth knowledge knows that minus the GFP (which several manufacturers have taken out) they are nothing other then an empty fire extinguisher.

I recently had dealings with a real estate investor who had purchased a 1978 home for rental that had been owned for years by a do-it-yourself "handyman". There were many obvious electrical conditions that led me to worry about hidden concerns. I felt there were two options for the owner to consider - either trace every circuit in the home and open every device and junction box (hoping none were buried behind drywall) or install a modern distribution panel with combination GFCI/CAFCI circuit breakers. I was very concerned that there were likely areas where connections behind the drywall may not be in junction boxes and that the only way to be absolutely sure would be to strip the walls and ceilings, certainly not an option financially.

And if any poorly made connection becomes a glowing connection, good luck. AFCIs will not protect against joule heating, which makes up for over 95% of electrical fires in fixed wiring. I'd rather go through accessible wiring to get a general understanding of the workmanship and splicing.

I'll admit to a prejudice that grew out of having recently watched as my son and his wife and children stood by helplessly seeing their 1976 home burn to the ground as a result of an electric fire. They lost everything they owned.

How was it determined to be electrical? Most fires are written off as electrical- few get a fine tooth comb.

The investor took my advice and elected to go with the new panel and combo breakers. Yes, some issues arose right away, but on 3 circuits only. These were traced down, aided by the sequential light signals that allowed the causes to be narrowed down. Primarily, they were combined neutrals in various boxes, but the point is the home is now safe. Ground faults? Covered. Arc faults? Covered.

These issues were picked up by the GFCI function.

I do not believe this is a result of lobbying, it is a result of dramatic advancements in technology that any thinking person should at least consider as life-saving achievements. Will some individuals have to sharpen their skills? Perhaps, but those who find they must should have sharpened them ages ago. I wonder how many "nuisance trips" have turned out to be the result of loose terminations? How many electricians carry (and use) torque screwdrivers? Thank goodness for the engineers, manufacturers and the NEC for the CAFCI and the combination GFCI/CAFCI circuit breaker.

You do know that Engineers are actually some of the most outspoken critics? Including Joe Engels involved in the development of AFCIs.

Yes there are a few bad electrician out there where GFP caught wiring errors and damaged NM during construction- but also ask the ones having to deal with an even greater number of calls from NRTL listed customer appliances tripping them and manufacturers openly telling electricians to try a latter generation of AFCI.


You want a life saving achievement? Get fire sprinklers in every home. But all I hear is crickets. Why aren't you fighting to stop the local amendments which get sprinklers out out of the residential building code?

 

[romex jockey]

Maybe they need to take aim at the shill in this whole scam who has the least deep pockets- the NEC and NFPA. Make them remove AFCI references and the market will dry up like a puddle in the middle of the Sahara. It's also the only way for the manufacturers to save face and gracefully bow out without attracting lawsuits themselves.

-Hal

CMP-2 has been confronted a number of times , by a number of entities Hal, even an nfpa EE ....meet Bob H>
https://youtu.be/iLmC5quELrE
Every last rop was rejected, w/out ado.
including non nrtl testings>
https://youtu.be/_2HyTRxzwXs
The problem being CMP-2 has either directly seated ,or had manufacturer alternates for 2 deacades.
Always the same few names can be tracked to CSPC, and UL , these same few are also trade rag writers, https://www.ul.com/global/documents/offerings/perspectives/regulators/electrical/afci/Dini.pdfquite the consortium> https://www.afcisafety.org/

That said, there is one man who has been involved in an international patent dispute for quite some time. He's developed point of use thermal dynamics into something not much bigger than a wirenut.....very simple.

He's a very stubborn sort , who refuses to sell out to the afci manufactures. The manufacturers not only want it badly, they've instituted amazing lengths of corporate espionage to 'screw down' any word of it....because he refuses to cave to them

Meet Mr Cyril Charles>


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr_f2IzquB0

https://youtu.be/awXgoPlNyN4

https://youtu.be/4DL5aon0nRI


~S~

 

[romex jockey]

I guess i have to say what needs to be said, the real issue is not so much the viability of whatever marketed technology.....the real issue is so many of us simply do not understand the fundamentals of electrical physics we work on daily......they might appear simple , yet there is a complete science to even that which we view simplistic.

~RJ~

 

[mbrooke]

I guess i have to say what needs to be said, the real issue is not so much the viability of whatever marketed technology.....the real issue is so many of us simply do not understand the fundamentals of electrical physics we work on daily......they might appear simple , yet there is a complete science to even that which we view simplistic.

~RJ~

True. Deep science exists behind everything- but remember that much of it can be explained such that a 4 year old gets it.


Over 95% of in wall electrical fires are the byproduct of joule heating. A high resistance connection does not produce any arcing or sputtering and the industry has openly admitted that. Yet no solution has ever been offered, except AFCIs which vaguely claim to do what manufacturers have said they can't.