20A Receptacle Debate

[kpepin]

I was working with my apprentice and he asked me if all dining room receptacle circuits had to be 20 amps. He told me that someone else in the company said it was required. Since I don't do any residential work, I couldn't answer him right away.
When I looked in the 2005 NEC I found Art. 210.52(B)(1) which says:

(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

Now what I want to know is, first, am I looking at the right article and second, does this mean that all dining room receptacles have to be 20 amps?

 

[midget]

Re: 20A Receptacle Debate

I think it's saying it's part of the 2 or more 20 ampers...for the kitchen, dining, etc...like they are the same circuit?

 

[kpepin]

Re: 20A Receptacle Debate

except 210.52(B)(2) says that you can't have any other outlets on the dedicated small appliance circuit.

 

[midget]

Re: 20A Receptacle Debate

geez your right it does...lol...but I thoguht it said you could feed dining rm, breakfast nook, etc...off the kitch...I'll have to read 210.

 

[kpepin]

Re: 20A Receptacle Debate

wait a minute... my bad! it says no other outlets not receptacles. 210.52(B)(3) says that you can have other receptacles on a small appliance circuit.

 

[gary]

Re: 20A Receptacle Debate

The answer is yes to both of your questions. You are looking in the right section and the dining room outlets need to be on a 20 amp small appliance circuit. You can make them part of the two circuits required for the kitchen countertops or make them part of an additional 20 amp circuit that serves only receptacle loads in the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit.

 

[russ]

Re: 20A Receptacle Debate

Yes they are required to be on a appliance 20 amp circuit. This code is arcaic but probably saves a lot of grief. I don't think it's needed in a traditional dining room. It's more likely needed in the type of home where the dining area and the kitchen are all one area, and counters extend into the eating section

 

[charlie b]

Re: 20A Receptacle Debate

I can come up with two ways of describing it. (1) You could just connect the dining room (etc.) receptacles on one or the other of the two required SA circuits. (2) You could run a separate circuit to the dining room (etc.) circuits, at which point that circuit becomes, by definition, another ?SA circuit.? In either case, you cannot put any other outlets on that circuit.

 

[charlie]

Re: 20A Receptacle Debate

Am I the only one to have ever seen warmers and coffee pots used in the dining room?

 

[kpepin]

Re: 20A Receptacle Debate

ok, so basically the code says that I have to have 20A circuits in all the room listed. Even if there is a pantry that is used solely for storage like a closet without any countetops just shelving. I guesss the wording is just a bit confusing to me. Thanks for the input.

 

[iggy2]

Re: 20A Receptacle Debate

I asked this same question about a year ago, and it became very contentious. I recall the outcome to be however that all the DR receptacles have to be on a 20A small appliance branch circuit. One person argued that if you provide receptacles to meet the 6 foot rule, these have to be on a 20A small appliance branch circuit, but if you provide more than req'd to meet the 6 foot rule, these did not have to be on the DR circuit.

Logic is that small appliance branch circuits "shall serve all receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A)". Since the 6 foot rule receptacles meet the requirement of 210.52(A), then any additional ones were not req'd by 210.52(A), and therefore did not have to be 20 amp on a small appliance branch circuit.

The logic seems to work, but who puts in more receptacles than req'd, and if so, is it worth NOT putting them on a 20 amp circuit????

 

[charlie]

Re: 20A Receptacle Debate

I don't see that the 6' rule has anything to do with this discussion.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: 20A Receptacle Debate

Originally posted by iggy2:
I asked this same question about a year ago, and it became very contentious. I recall the outcome to be however that all the DR receptacles have to be on a 20A small appliance branch circuit. One person argued that if you provide receptacles to meet the 6 foot rule, these have to be on a 20A small appliance branch circuit, but if you provide more than req'd to meet the 6 foot rule, these did not have to be on the DR circuit.

Logic is that small appliance branch circuits "shall serve all receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A)". Since the 6 foot rule receptacles meet the requirement of 210.52(A), then any additional ones were not req'd by 210.52(A), and therefore did not have to be 20 amp on a small appliance branch circuit.

The logic seems to work, but who puts in more receptacles than req'd, and if so, is it worth NOT putting them on a 20 amp circuit????

That logic doesn't work at all. That's nuts. That's like saying if you install more countertop outlets in a kitchen, you wouldn't have to GFI protect them, because the code doesn't require them to be there in the first place.

210.52(B)(1). In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two
or more20-ampere small appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall
and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C),
and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

"...shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets..." That seems pretty clear to me. The redundancy of re-mentioning that they were required shouldn't negate the emphasis that they are all on the two or more dedicated small appliance branch circuits.

(Edited to make that code window simmer down!)
(Then Charlie beat me to the punch)

[ December 19, 2004, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[iwire]

Re: 20A Receptacle Debate

George we had talked about this awhile ago and if I remember Mike Holt actually had to get involved.

Again if I am remembering right the out come was once you have put in the required outlets any additional outlets in the kitchen dinning room pantry etc could be 15 amp circuits.

 

[iwire]

Re: 20A Receptacle Debate

George I was a hard sell on this one I do remember that.

210.52(B)(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A) and (C) and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

Any receptacle outlets in addition to those required by 210.52(A) and (C) and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment, do not have to be SA branch circuits.

By the way none of us use the code tags, use the quote tags. That keeps the window from getting wide.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: 20A Receptacle Debate

By the exact wording I have to agree, but that's still nuts. I guess if it's been argued before, there's no sense in debating it again. From a practical standpoint, it's moot anyway.

I feel a proposal coming on...

 

[iwire]

Re: 20A Receptacle Debate

George I did not mean we can not talk about it.

I think it is 'nuts' and I think even with my charm I could not convince a local inspector that it is allowed.

 

[apauling]

Re: 20A Receptacle Debate

how would one go about proving which outlet is not the one required? and for liability purposes, how would the less than expected amperage outlet be identified?

intent is clear by the specifics of the exceptions.

paul

 

[iwire]

Re: 20A Receptacle Debate

Paul intent means nothing, the words are what count.

Trust me I was a very hard sell on this, I had to eat my words.

If you got some time here is where it was talked about before.

Dining Room Receptacles

 

[George Stolz]

Re: 20A Receptacle Debate

Well, I made it through three pages, and I still feel a proposal coming on...