210.12

[LarryFine]

So ...

I go to a house that is being remolded and because of that an existing home run supplying outlets must be re-routed and that requires adding a new section of NM to do that.

That new section of NM is a in fact branch circuit supplying outlets that are installed in a dwelling unit and that new section requires AFCI protection.

It appears you feel the word 'installed' means the act of providing a new outlet and IMO it is just talking about the location of being in a dwelling unit.

If you're correct, then every existing outlet on every existing circuit should be brought to present code.

 

[iwire]

If you're correct, then every existing outlet on every existing circuit should be brought to present code.

I am not following you Larry, please expand on that.

 

[iwire]

If that were the cased they would have just said "supplying outlets in family rooms, living rooms etc....

Maybe, or maybe they thought it was already clear.

If I was to say ...

"I don't get lost because I have a GPS installed in my truck"

Does that say it is at this moment being installed or does it indicate where the GPS is located?

 

[LarryFine]

I am not following you Larry, please expand on that.

Every existing outlet is "installed".

 

[iwire]

Every existing outlet is "installed".

Yes, but if you don't touch it you do not have to do anything, when you add to the circuit is when things change.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Bob is correct that the new wire requires AFCI protection per the 2008 NEC.

However the AHJ determines if this work falls under the 2008 NEC or allows it to fall under the code at which time it was initially installed.

 

[macmikeman]

Installed is actually past tense.
"that, that has already been done"
install
"that, which will be done"
and installing"
That, "which is being done"

ask yourself this are there "outlets installed in these rooms"
if yes then the circuit needs AFCI.

I agree with N.C. code interpretation as not requiring them to be AFCI protected with older wiring, and possible multi-wired circuits could cost the home owner enough to keep him from even thinking about upgrading old out of date and overloaded service that may be a hazard.

Ok lets try the semantics of the word installed a different way. Branch circuit gets extended because of a panel relocation. Inspector shows up. Asks me the question: Mike, did you install any outlets on that circuit? Me- no. Ok then no afci protection required. Present past tense???:

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Let's make it more interesting. Suppose I use a piece of AC cable to connect from the panel to where the old cable is when I relocate. This does not satisfy the reading- according to Bob and others, even though it should based on 210.12 except.1. AC cable is allowed to the first outlet but not to the junction box before the first outlet......

We can play semantics all day that is why I say call the ahj-- I did that and we got our ruling from the state. This, however, does not force any local inspector to interpret it his way.

BTW, I agree with Bob as to the wording-- not sure if that is the intent but it does make sense that the afci is protecting the circuit and not the outlets alone.

 

[macmikeman]

Dennis I am in full agreement that it is supposed to protect the branch circuit, no question about that. Just on what triggers the requirement into action. Or put it another way- Suppose you run a branch circuit out to a bedroom or living room, and terminate it in a box, install a blank plate, but do not install any outlets. Just in case someday somebody might want to use it for something, who knows possibly a 240 volt ac unit. Are you now required to install an arc fault breaker onto it because you ran a branch circuit? No. Would you be if you installed a 120 volt receptacle device at that location at any time later? Yes. Why? Because you just turned it into an outlet.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Dennis I am in full agreement that it is supposed to protect the branch circuit, no question about that. Just on what triggers the requirement into action. Or put it another way- Suppose you run a branch circuit out to a bedroom or living room, and terminate it in a box, install a blank plate, but do not install any outlets. Just in case someday somebody might want to use it for something, who knows possibly a 240 volt ac unit. Are you now required to install an arc fault breaker onto it because you ran a branch circuit? No. Would you be if you installed a 120 volt receptacle device at that location at any time later? Yes. Why? Because you just turned it into an outlet.

It is an outlet so I would make you AFCI protect it. Did you mean receptacle?

And it is 'supplying' the outlet. Present tense.

 

[macmikeman]

It is an outlet so I would make you AFCI protect it. Did you mean receptacle?

And it is 'supplying' the outlet. Present tense.

Mike I was afraid from my last post somebody would think I am confused about the difference between an outlet and a device, I am not. That unused future use branch circuit might also be used for a smoke detector... Or a whole string of receptacle outlets, who knows, right now it is a cable terminated in an accesable box, voltage use undetermined at present. So would you require a 120 volt afci breaker be installed at the front end just because a branch circuit was run out to the location? I bet you wouldn't until that branch circuit was converted into one or more 120 volt outlets.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Mike I was afraid from my last post somebody would think I am confused about the difference between an outlet and a device, I am not. That unused future use branch circuit might also be used for a smoke detector... Or a whole string of receptacle outlets, who knows, right now it is a cable terminated in an accesable box, voltage use undetermined at present. So would you require a 120 volt afci breaker be installed at the front end just because a branch circuit was run out to the location? I bet you wouldn't until that branch circuit was converted into one or more 120 volt outlets.

I would direct you to 90.4. The second line.

And yes I would.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Suppose you run a branch circuit out to a bedroom or living room, and terminate it in a box, install a blank plate, but do not install any outlets.

I believe this would require an AFCI whether there is an outlet there or not.

The question I have is why bath & Kitchen lights are exempt.

 

[sameguy]

If I extend the wire in a bathroom for the GFI do i need a dedicated home run now?
Remember this one?

 

[hurk27]

If I extend the wire in a bathroom for the GFI do i need a dedicated home run now?
Remember this one?

I have to look to see whos online before I can say which way you will be told to do it:grin:

 

[macmikeman]

I believe this would require an AFCI whether there is an outlet there or not.
.

I don't because it is undetermined if it is going to be a 120 volt circuit or a 240 volt circuit. Nec definition of outlet: Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment. A box with a cable in it and a blank plate covering it is not "at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment" ..... yet....

 

[macmikeman]

I would direct you to 90.4. The second line.

And yes I would.

In that case I would be certain to go over your head, but you know what, I didn't intend this discussion to turn into a peeing contest so what I will say is in the words of my first software programming instructor " Whatever you do, do not create any endless loops or circular reference equations, and if you do make sure you code in an exit statement. Goodnight everybody and thanks for the input. I certainly respect all the members opinions, and I have mine. All done on this thread.

 

[TOOL_5150]

I would direct you to 90.4. The second line.

And yes I would.

Ahh, You are one of 'those guys' :roll:

~Matt

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I don't because it is undetermined if it is going to be a 120 volt circuit or a 240 volt circuit. Nec definition of outlet: Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment. A box with a cable in it and a blank plate covering it is not "at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment" ..... yet....

Okay if the wire is not terminated at a panel then obviously it would not need any protection at all. However, if you ut a blank plate in the master bedroom and put a 120v breaker then I say it must be AFCI.

Why would we even discuss a wire that is not energized?

 

[jxofaltrds]

Ahh, You are one of 'those guys' :roll:

~Matt

If you meant one of those guys who uses judgement then yes.

Where it says the AHJ has the responsiblity. Note the word in not right or privilage.