210.52(A)(1) Spacing issue

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Volta said:
"...no point measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space is more than...

Given the fact that the description of "wall space" as used in that Section disallows traversing a doorway, fireplace, or similar opening, I don't see how a separate wall space can be considered as a possible interpretation.
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I agree with Volta here entirely.
 
Volta said:
"...no point measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space is more than..."
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You don't measure a "point," horizontally or otherwise. The "measured horizontally" has to be referring to something, but it is not (as would be required by common rules of English grammar) referring to the word or phrase immediately preceding it. That is part of the reason that I submitted a proposal to change the wording of this article. It is simply bad grammar.

So what exactly does the "measured horizontally" refer to? The only part of this sentence that has anything to do with measurement is the number "6" and its unit of measure "feet." So this is what the sentence is telling me:
. . . no point in any wall space is more than 6 feet, measured horizontally along the floor line, from . . . .
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That interpretation allows the 6 feet to be measured across a doorway. I don't like that fact, and that is why I still think this article needs to be reworded.
 
measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space



Walls space, as defined in this article as being UNBROKEN BY DOORS,,,,,,



I don't see anything confusing about it
 
charlie b said:
I don't like that fact, and that is why I still think this article needs to be reworded.
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I disagree that it is a fact, it is your opinion.:)

I do not think you will see it changed as IMO it says what it means as it is. I am willing to bet the CMP sees it the same as well.
 
iwire said:
I disagree that it is a fact, it is your opinion.:)
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I disagree. I understand what they meant to say, but it is still poorly worded at best in regards to proper English usage, as Charlie B states. The basis for my argument: I had my wife, who has a Masters in English, read it and she agrees with Charlie B. A certain vagueness exists in the current wording.

I do not think you will see it changed as IMO it says what it means as it is. I am willing to bet the CMP sees it the same as well.
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It has been noted before, by the NFPA, that the code book cannot be written in proper English and convey what they feel they want to say.
 
Don't forget about us electrical engineers who didn't go out In the field. The problem with OJT learning is that if your teacher is wrong then you are wrong. Most EEs have to totally rely upon the NFPA for our designs. We have to do exactly what it says.

So while we all agree that you need receptacles on both wall spaces. If you weren't trained by another experienced person you could easily interrept this to only supply one receptacle per 6' space. My first thought was to say "I can plug the vacuum into a receptacle on the left of the door or the right". Therefore you only need one receptacle.
 
In the real world it is understood to mean what we have all been doing. Personally, I think it is quite clear.

Wall space is defined as -- we will just look at #1
Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:
(1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings
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I think Charlie agrees with this.

Now let's look at spacing
(1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed such that no point measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space is more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.
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Now let's do simple algebra---substitution we'll remove the words "wall space" and put in the definition.

(1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed such that no point measured horizontally along the floor line in any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings is more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.
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Does that change anything?????
 
(1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed such that no point measured horizontally along the floor line in any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings is more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.
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Funny, I tried asking my wife and another friend what this means (none of them have any pre-biased understanding or electrical knowledge) and they just said every wall space must be 6' from a receptacle. I then told them that each wall space must have its own receptacle within 6' and then they said, "oh, OK that make sense":roll:

Like I said, the only reason this ever came up was that I did a design per everyones interpretation, but an architect told me I had too many receptacles in the bedrooms. He then showed me this code section to prove his point. So there must be some confusion for the untrained person who reads this.

The simple solution is to change "any" to "each" and you get rid of all issues. I will say this horse it dead since we all agree with how the design should and is usually done. (of course in my house, it wasn't followed very well as there are lots of small wall spaces without recepts)
 
Dennis Alwon said:
In the real world it is understood to mean what we have all been doing. Personally, I think it is quite clear.

Wall space is defined as -- we will just look at #1


I think Charlie agrees with this.

Now let's look at spacing


Now let's do simple algebra---substitution we'll remove the words "wall space" and put in the definition.



Does that change anything?????
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As I see it, the problem with current wording is it only requires the point measured from to be in any wall space. The wording does not specifically require the receptacle to be in the same wall space as the point measured from.

Your substitution only emphasizes the point being measured from must be within the wall space, i.e. not in a doorway or other break along the floorline.

Bjenks, changing 'any' to 'each' will not change anything, as it still refers to the point being measured from, not the wall space the receptacle must be located in. The following is how I see it should be worded:

(1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed in each wall space such that no point measured horizontally along the floor line of the wall space is more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.
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Smart $ said:
As I see it, the problem with current wording is it only requires the point measured from to be in any wall space. The wording does not specifically require the receptacle to be in the same wall space as the point measured from.
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That is exactly how I see it.
 
This thread has stupid writtin all over it. This is the very first thing you learn in residential layout. I believe it reads the same now as it did 40 years ago when my brain had 18 years of dumb on it. A door stops wall space and begins a new wall on the other side. If there is a 2' wall than another closet door that 2' wall gets an outlet. I always placed an outlet behind the inswing bedroom door to allow for an open wall space outlet for the vaccume cleaner. The ladies loved that. Never pushed the 12' thing. Always had at least one outlet on every wall. Jim Walters made some pretty small houses back in the day.
 
Cavie said:
This thread has stupid writtin all over it. This is the very first thing you learn in residential layout. I believe it reads the same now as it did 40 years ago when my brain had 18 years of dumb on it. A door stops wall space and begins a new wall on the other side. If there is a 2' wall than another closet door that 2' wall gets an outlet. I always placed an outlet behind the inswing bedroom door to allow for an open wall space outlet for the vaccume cleaner. The ladies loved that. Never pushed the 12' thing. Always had at least one outlet on every wall. Jim Walters made some pretty small houses back in the day.
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While I agree with you in a way, and I NEVER thought it to mean differently, what the others are saying bears true. I had to think it over several different times to get what they meant, and the guy who had his wife and her friend read it really made me understand why the wording for spacing is not clear to eliminate one receptacle meeting two wall space requirements. I apologize for disagreeing without actually reading closely.
 
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