Volta
Senior Member
- Location
- Columbus, Ohio
Other than 18"?
210.52(A)(1) Spacing issue
- Thread starter Bjenks
- Start date
- Status
Other than 18"?
jaylectricity
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Occupation
- licensed journeyman electrician
Ask kwired.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Will the definition of "is" enter into this discussion? :roll:
- Location
- Massachusetts
I agree with Volta here entirely.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
You don't measure a "point," horizontally or otherwise. The "measured horizontally" has to be referring to something, but it is not (as would be required by common rules of English grammar) referring to the word or phrase immediately preceding it. That is part of the reason that I submitted a proposal to change the wording of this article. It is simply bad grammar.
So what exactly does the "measured horizontally" refer to? The only part of this sentence that has anything to do with measurement is the number "6" and its unit of measure "feet." So this is what the sentence is telling me:
That interpretation allows the 6 feet to be measured across a doorway. I don't like that fact, and that is why I still think this article needs to be reworded.
e57
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
I have tried to look at from the point of view the OP is seeing - and I can't see it..... Sorry 
mcclary's electrical
Senior Member
- Location
- VA
measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space
Walls space, as defined in this article as being UNBROKEN BY DOORS,,,,,,
I don't see anything confusing about it
Walls space, as defined in this article as being UNBROKEN BY DOORS,,,,,,
I don't see anything confusing about it
- Location
- Massachusetts
I disagree that it is a fact, it is your opinion.
I do not think you will see it changed as IMO it says what it means as it is. I am willing to bet the CMP sees it the same as well.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
I disagree that it is a fact, it is your opinion.
I disagree. I understand what they meant to say, but it is still poorly worded at best in regards to proper English usage, as Charlie B states. The basis for my argument: I had my wife, who has a Masters in English, read it and she agrees with Charlie B. A certain vagueness exists in the current wording.
It has been noted before, by the NFPA, that the code book cannot be written in proper English and convey what they feel they want to say.
Jim W in Tampa
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa Florida
That's how its been for over 30 years. Residential guys learn that on first day on job.
It's one of the few black and white areas in nec
Bjenks
Senior Member
- Location
- East Coast of FL
Don't forget about us electrical engineers who didn't go out In the field. The problem with OJT learning is that if your teacher is wrong then you are wrong. Most EEs have to totally rely upon the NFPA for our designs. We have to do exactly what it says.
So while we all agree that you need receptacles on both wall spaces. If you weren't trained by another experienced person you could easily interrept this to only supply one receptacle per 6' space. My first thought was to say "I can plug the vacuum into a receptacle on the left of the door or the right". Therefore you only need one receptacle.
So while we all agree that you need receptacles on both wall spaces. If you weren't trained by another experienced person you could easily interrept this to only supply one receptacle per 6' space. My first thought was to say "I can plug the vacuum into a receptacle on the left of the door or the right". Therefore you only need one receptacle.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
In the real world it is understood to mean what we have all been doing. Personally, I think it is quite clear.
Wall space is defined as -- we will just look at #1
I think Charlie agrees with this.
Now let's look at spacing
Now let's do simple algebra---substitution we'll remove the words "wall space" and put in the definition.
Does that change anything?????
Wall space is defined as -- we will just look at #1
I think Charlie agrees with this.
Now let's look at spacing
Now let's do simple algebra---substitution we'll remove the words "wall space" and put in the definition.
Does that change anything?????
Volta
Senior Member
- Location
- Columbus, Ohio
I like reasonable explanations!
Bjenks
Senior Member
- Location
- East Coast of FL
Funny, I tried asking my wife and another friend what this means (none of them have any pre-biased understanding or electrical knowledge) and they just said every wall space must be 6' from a receptacle. I then told them that each wall space must have its own receptacle within 6' and then they said, "oh, OK that make sense":roll:
Like I said, the only reason this ever came up was that I did a design per everyones interpretation, but an architect told me I had too many receptacles in the bedrooms. He then showed me this code section to prove his point. So there must be some confusion for the untrained person who reads this.
The simple solution is to change "any" to "each" and you get rid of all issues. I will say this horse it dead since we all agree with how the design should and is usually done. (of course in my house, it wasn't followed very well as there are lots of small wall spaces without recepts)
As I see it, the problem with current wording is it only requires the point measured from to be in any wall space. The wording does not specifically require the receptacle to be in the same wall space as the point measured from.
Your substitution only emphasizes the point being measured from must be within the wall space, i.e. not in a doorway or other break along the floorline.
Bjenks, changing 'any' to 'each' will not change anything, as it still refers to the point being measured from, not the wall space the receptacle must be located in. The following is how I see it should be worded:
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
Cavie
Senior Member
- Location
- SW Florida
This thread has stupid writtin all over it. This is the very first thing you learn in residential layout. I believe it reads the same now as it did 40 years ago when my brain had 18 years of dumb on it. A door stops wall space and begins a new wall on the other side. If there is a 2' wall than another closet door that 2' wall gets an outlet. I always placed an outlet behind the inswing bedroom door to allow for an open wall space outlet for the vaccume cleaner. The ladies loved that. Never pushed the 12' thing. Always had at least one outlet on every wall. Jim Walters made some pretty small houses back in the day.
mcclary's electrical
Senior Member
- Location
- VA
While I agree with you in a way, and I NEVER thought it to mean differently, what the others are saying bears true. I had to think it over several different times to get what they meant, and the guy who had his wife and her friend read it really made me understand why the wording for spacing is not clear to eliminate one receptacle meeting two wall space requirements. I apologize for disagreeing without actually reading closely.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
I never saw it this way before, but I do now. I, as with most others, thought this section was pretty clear.
I never imagined it being interpeted any other way until this thread.
Durn train drivers had to go and stir up trouble.
grin
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
Me too. I also had my wife read it and explain to me the exact context of the wording.
- Status