210.52(A)(1) Spacing issue

[iwire]

If anyone thinks they could get this line of reasoning past an AHJ or the CMP I will be shocked.

If you have to struggle to find a 'new way' to read it maybe you are reading it wrong.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If anyone thinks they could get this line of reasoning past an AHJ or the CMP I will be shocked.

If you have to struggle to find a 'new way' to read it maybe you are reading it wrong.

Amen to this... I tried to read it the way Charlie and Smart see it but I don't get it. What is the purpose of taking a code article that everyone totally understands and try to change the meaning.

The purpose of words is communication and I believe the CMP have communicated what is expected of us as electricians.

Life, already, is too complicated so why make it more so.

 

[mpd]

i agree this seems pretty clear to me each each 2ft wall space needs a receptacle, I submitted a change to this section that was accepted, because i had a contractor who thought he could use a kitchen counter receptacle to count as the required receptacle between the end of a kitchen counter and a 3ft wall space to a door because the receptacle was within 6ft.

 

[Smart $]

Amen to this... I tried to read it the way Charlie and Smart see it but I don't get it. What is the purpose of taking a code article that everyone totally understands and try to change the meaning.

The purpose of words is communication and I believe the CMP have communicated what is expected of us as electricians.

Life, already, is too complicated so why make it more so.

The point is that not everyone totally understands the meaning as written. If a requirement, using correct grammar, can be interpretted in more than one way, it is my opinion that it is not written clearly enough to be a requirement.

 

[jumper]

The point is that not everyone totally understands the meaning as written. If a requirement, using correct grammar, can be interpretted in more than one way, it is my opinion that it is not written clearly enough to be a requirement.

Yep. It is subtle, but it is there.

 

[jumper]

Amen to this... I tried to read it the way Charlie and Smart see it but I don't get it. What is the purpose of taking a code article that everyone totally understands and try to change the meaning.

The purpose of words is communication and I believe the CMP have communicated what is expected of us as electricians.

Life, already, is too complicated so why make it more so.

Okay, let me phrase a question: " Put a receptacle on any wall space that is 2 feet or larger."

Have I said put one on each wall space, meaning all of them; or have I said that I want one receptacle, and that it just has to be on a wall space that is at least 2 feet?

 

[jumper]

If anyone thinks they could get this line of reasoning past an AHJ or the CMP I will be shocked.

If you have to struggle to find a 'new way' to read it maybe you are reading it wrong.

I do not think that any AHJ would accept this, but I believe that that there is a small argument for mis-interpetation.

Do I agree that the code needs to be revised, NO, we all know what it it is supposed to mean.

Do I agree that it could be mis-interpeted, YES, there is validity to the ill use of grammer here.

Do I dis-agree that the revision is a bad thing, NO, we will still wire houses the same way we have always done.

This is just an exercise in English usage.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

One thing we all have learned is that it is very difficult to communicate in our own language. I just don't see getting worked up on this one since we all know what is expected of us regardless of how it is written.

Certainly it is an issue in other articles, I don't see it here or there would be issues in the field with this and there just isn't.

 

[pfalcon]

This issue is like looking at the silhouette of the old lady and the young lady. Your personality predisposes your interpretation.

As written the rule implies the correct answer. As strong as the implication is, by iwire's own rule, it only says what it says. Nothing in the clause requires you to stop measuring when you reach a break in the wall space. Floor lines extend through breaks unless you disqualify them. Just ask someone laying carpet or tile. It requires the receptacle for the wall space but does not require the receptacle to be part of its own wall space.

Charlie's amendment:
Proposed revision to 210.52(A)(1):
(1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed in each wall space so that no point measured horizontally along the floor line in (delete the word "any") that wall space is more than 1.8 m (6 ft.) from a receptacle outlet.

The amendment makes it explicit that the wall space must contain the receptacle. Definitely "more better" and for such a minor wording change.

:grin: Decision reversed in favor of the amendment :grin:
:grin: Questionably honorable Judge PFalcon presiding :grin: