210.52 A(2) Wall space & cabinets

Status
Not open for further replies.
I am not sure where I stand on this one.

library-in-stained-cherry.jpg

Base Cabinets with bookshelves to ceiling.

Looking at the right side of the above picture are receptacles required?

How about if all four sides looked like the right side?

Are we willing to say that if all four sides had these cabinets that the NEC would not require any receptacles?

(Forget that it's a bazillion $ home that will have it's own requirements :) )
 
Left of the fireplace recptacles required, right side none required. That's the way I see it.

Go into a kitchen with two four foot pantry cabinets next to each other between a four foot Sub Z and a doorway. Do you put receptacles in to cover that "Wall space"?? :-?

I don't.

More importantly, Bob, how did you get into my house?
 
Everybody keeps talking about "cabinets", but cabinets should be considered a "similar opening" in 210.52(A)(2)(1), a break "along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings". . And plugs aren't required or counted toward spacing requirements when "located within cabinets", 210.52(3).

When you talk about "counters", then you have a different situation. . A counter is not a "similar opening" and would need plug spacing 2,6,12 unless they're classified as a "similar area" ['08 wording] to a kitchen/eating related counter, 210.52(C), in which case you would need plug spacing of 1,2,4 unless there's no backsplash, then you need one per counter section, 210.52(C)(5)x(2).

David
 
electricmanscott said:
Left of the fireplace recptacles required, right side none required. That's the way I see it.
Click to expand...

I think you're right.

To the right of the fireplace looks to be cabinet doors. . I think I see door handles.
But if those are actually fixed panels, then they're wall space and would need receptacles.

David
 
Clarification to my original post ..

Clarification to my original post ..

I am actually referencing a situation very close to the library condition as shown by Bobs picture.

Entire long wall is covered by cabinets.
All cabinets including the base units have doors.
Half the wall has NO UPPER and would look just like a counter area.

I believe the area that has NO UPPER and is 7' long would require a receptacle as being viewed to be a counter
 
I have done librarys similiar to iwire's picture in the past. (Except there were no cabinet doors in the bottom, just fixed shelves). And was required to either put rec in the floor or in the toe kick.
 
480sparky said:
Has anybody considered floor receptacles?
Click to expand...

"Considered" is just fine but is it required ?

C3PO said:
I have done librarys similiar to iwire's picture in the past. (Except there were no cabinet doors in the bottom, just fixed shelves). And was required to either put rec in the floor or in the toe kick.
Click to expand...

Where are floor or toekick receptacles required ?
Just because a toe kick is present doesn't mean receptacles are required, allowed yes, but not necessarily required.
Where they're required for noncounter wall space is specified in 210.52(A)(2).
(1) wall space 2feet or more unbroken by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings
(2) wall space occupied by fixed panels
(3) space bounded by fixed room dividers or railings instead of a normal wall

The cabinet with doors that extend down to the toekick isn't a wall. . It isn't a fixed panel. . It isn't a fixed room divider or railing. . So by default, it should be seen as a "similar opening" to a doorway or fireplace.

Just because you can put a chair and a floor lamp in front of the cabinet doesn't trigger the requirement anymore than putting a chair and a floor lamp in front of a fireplace tiggers plugs required on the mantle or embedded in the masonry.

Allowed yes, required no.

David
 
In my example., It was a library. a whole room in which all four walls were nothing but built in shelves. Would that mean that no rec are required for that whole room?
 
dnem said:
Everybody keeps talking about "cabinets",
Click to expand...

Yes, we are talking about cabinets, not counters.

The name of this thread is "210.52 A(2) Wall space & cabinets"

From the opening post

GoLonghorns said:
I'm looking for clarification to this section that speaks to wall space covered by cabinets.
Click to expand...

Now again I ask, if the room was a dwelling unit library / reading room with cabinets and bookshelves from floor to ceiling around the entire perimeter would you let the EC out the door without installing any receptacles?
 
iwire said:
Now again I ask, if the room was a dwelling unit library / reading room with cabinets and bookshelves from floor to ceiling around the entire perimeter would you let the EC out the door without installing any receptacles?
Click to expand...

I agree with you but let's say hypothetically that there were closet doors wall to wall. The doors were actually made out of cabinetry but went to the floor. Now what happens. Bad design I agree but I don't see what anyone could say about it. Of course, the homeowner may not be happy about it.
 
iwire said:
Yes, we are talking about cabinets, not counters.

The name of this thread is "210.52 A(2) Wall space & cabinets"
Click to expand...

Then maybe we should ignore the pictures being posted that show counters, because that's a separate subject.

But I think we can handle both in the same thread unless you object.

David
 
iwire said:
Now again I ask, if the room was a dwelling unit library / reading room with cabinets and bookshelves from floor to ceiling around the entire perimeter would you let the EC out the door without installing any receptacles?
Click to expand...

floor to ceiling entire perimeter, then yes I would "let the EC out the door without installing any receptacles"
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I agree with you but let's say hypothetically that there were closet doors wall to wall. The doors were actually made out of cabinetry but went to the floor. Now what happens. Bad design I agree but I don't see what anyone could say about it. Of course, the homeowner may not be happy about it.
Click to expand...

"Of course, the homeowner may not be happy about it."
Which shows that there are considerations other than code requirements.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I agree with you but let's say hypothetically that there were closet doors wall to wall. The doors were actually made out of cabinetry but went to the floor. Now what happens. Bad design I agree but I don't see what anyone could say about it. Of course, the homeowner may not be happy about it.
Click to expand...

I just really don't know what the NEC requires here, I really doubt many inspectors are going to allow a receptacle-less habitable room. :smile:
 
iwire said:
I just really don't know what the NEC requires here, I really doubt many inspectors are going to allow a receptacle-less habitable room. :smile:
Click to expand...

Certainly a dilemna , for sure.:)
 
iwire said:
I just really don't know what the NEC requires here, I really doubt many inspectors are going to allow a receptacle-less habitable room. :smile:
Click to expand...

I see single plugs in commercial building rooms everyday because it's based on room usage. . The only thing that prevents that same thing happening [single plug in a room] in residential is:
* The room list in 210.52(A)+(A)(1), which allows large rooms, such as storage closets and basements, to be plugfree.
* And 210.52(A)(2) which examines the layout of the rooms listed in 210.52(A).

"receptacle-less habitable room" are not automatically code violations.

David
 
iwire said:
I just really don't know what the NEC requires here, I really doubt many inspectors are going to allow a receptacle-less habitable room. :smile:
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what the NEC requires here either. In my case the inspector required me to put in rec.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top