210.52 A(2) Wall space & cabinets

Merry Christmas
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I will say this if the cabinets were installed as Bob"s picture in Post 22 then I would not leave that room without recep. They can be installed in the toe space so I believe that would be the intent. I see the cabinets as wall space. If those doors went to the floor I don't see how one would need to comply.
 
dnem said:
I see single plugs in commercial building rooms everyday because it's based on room usage. . The only thing that prevents that same thing happening [single plug in a room] in residential is:
* The room list in 210.52(A)+(A)(1), which allows large rooms, such as storage closets and basements, to be plugfree.

David
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Librarys are included in this room list.
 
dnem said:
I see single plugs in commercial building rooms everyday because it's based on room usage. . The only thing that prevents that same thing happening [single plug in a room] in residential is:
* The room list in 210.52(A)+(A)(1), which allows large rooms, such as storage closets and basements, to be plugfree.
* And 210.52(A)(2) which examines the layout of the rooms listed in 210.52(A).

"receptacle-less habitable room" are not automatically code violations.

David
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David your being very slippery here,:grin: we are not talking about commercial spaces, we are not talking about non-habitable rooms.

Habitable room, cabinets filling the perimeter.

Do I have to install any receptacles?
 
dnem said:
Then maybe we should ignore the pictures being posted that show counters, because that's a separate subject.


But I think we can handle both in the same thread unless you object.

David
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Actually they were posted to illustrate those items under the counter called cabinets. :)

I don't see any reason to expand the subject unless the OP wants to.
 
iwire said:
David your being very slippery here,:grin: we are not talking about commercial spaces, we are not talking about non-habitable rooms.

Habitable room, cabinets filling the perimeter.

Do I have to install any receptacles?
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Many commercial building rooms are "habitable". . My point is that if you can't imagine a room being fully functional without plugs every 12', then think about all those commercial office building rooms that have just one plug. . If it supplies what's needed for usage, then I don't see the problem. . And what's needed for residential usage is defined by 210.52(A).

"Habitable room, cabinets filling the perimeter.
Do I have to install any receptacles?"
"have to" is the question, not what would be best for your customer.
For "have to", you go to 210.52(A).

"Do I have to install any receptacles?"
210.52(A)(2) tells you.



.
 
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iwire said:
Actually they were posted to illustrate those items under the counter called cabinets. :)

I don't see any reason to expand the subject unless the OP wants to.
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"items under the counter called cabinets"
You just expanded it yourself by bringing up the counter.

If you're putting plugs above the countertop, then you're done. . It doesn't matter if there's cabinets under the counter or the counters propped up with pillars, you don't have a requirement to add additional plugs in, under, around, thru, or between the cabinets. . When you're done with a requirement that means you're done. . Everything else is voluntary.

If you're counter is not a kitchen/eating/similar area counter and you aren't already planning to put plugs above the countertop, now you are forced to examine the cabinets in light of 210.52(A). . If you have a layout that is listed in 210.52(A)(2)(1),(2),or(3) then you are required to add plugs on the wall within 5 1/2 ' of the floor [210.52(4)] or on the floor within 18" of the wall [210.52(A)(3)], either above or below the countertop, your choice. . If you have a layout that is not listed in 210.52(A)(2)(1),(2),or(3) then you are not required, it's voluntary.

If you have a cabinets that include counters, then you have a layout that is listed in 210.52(A)(2)(1) because the existence of the counter means the cabinets are not "similar openings" to doorways or fireplaces, they are usable spaces and you are required to add plugs on the wall within 5 1/2 ' of the floor or on the floor within 18" of the wall. . You can't ignore the counter that's over the cabinet and think it doesn't affect the application of 210.52(A)(2). . It does affect the classification of the cabinet.

David


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I would like to address this question in a different way because I think I can word it in such a way that I don't need to talk about counters but rather can just refer to the 5 1/2' from the floor measurement.

So here goes.

Cabinets in/on a residential wall in a room listed in 210.52(A) that do not start at floor level or just above the toekick/basemolding but rather has a wall section of standard build or paneling under the cabinet. . Those cabinet walls are included in 210.52(A)(2)(1) "Any space 2' or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line ....." and so are required to have receptacles spaced 2,6,12. . Those receptacles can be located in the wall within 5 1/2' from the floor or in the floor within 18" from the wall [could but not required to be located above any counter that might exist].

Cabinets in/on a residential wall in a room listed in 210.52(A) that do start at floor level or just above the toekick/basemolding but do not extend up to 5 1/2' or higher from the floor [maybe have a counter, maybe not]. . Those cabinet walls are not considered "similar openings" and are included in 210.52(A)(2)(1) "Any space 2' or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings" and so are required to have receptacles spaced 2,6,12. . Those receptacles can be located in the wall within 5 1/2' from the floor or in the floor within 18" from the wall [could but not required to be located above any counter that might exist].

Cabinets in/on a residential wall in a room listed in 210.52(A) that do start at floor level or just above the toekick/basemolding and extend 5 1/2' or higher from the floor form wall spaces that are "similar openings" or breaks as spoken of in "broken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings." and so not required to have receptacles under 210.52(A)(2)(1). . They are also not "fixed panels in exterior walls" and so not required to have receptacles under 210.52(A)(2)(2). . They are also not "fixed room dividers" "or railings" and so not required to have receptacles under 210.52(A)(2)(3).

If you are not required to have receptacles under 210.52(A)(2)(1), 210.52(A)(2)(2), or 210.52(A)(2)(3), then you're not required to have receptacles spaced 2,6,12 even if the room is listed in 210.52(A).

The only time you have to really talk specifically about a cabinet counter is if the cabinet counter is classified as a kitchen/eating counter. . Otherwise you can just consider the 5 1/2' height code spec.

David
 
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OK, this isn't working !

I just reread my last post and I don't agree with it. . So I believe the proper response is for me to argue with myself.

I don't agree that the cabinet height determines if the cabinets should be considered "similar openings" that are similar to doors and fireplaces. . I think the presence of usable wall space within the cabinet area, as in counters, should be the determining factor if the cabinets should be considered "similar openings".

So I think addressing the presence of counters is unavoidable.

I'm going to try this one more time.

Cabinets in/on a residential wall in a room listed in 210.52(A) that do not start at floor level or just above the toekick/basemolding but rather has a wall section of standard build or paneling under the cabinet. . Those cabinet walls are included in 210.52(A)(2)(1) "Any space 2' or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line ....." and so are required to have receptacles spaced 2,6,12. . Those receptacles can be located in the wall within 5 1/2' from the floor or in the floor within 18" from the wall [could be located but not required to be located above any counter that might exist].

Cabinets in/on a residential wall in a room listed in 210.52(A) that do start at floor level or just above the toekick/basemolding and do have a usable wall space above a counter. . Those cabinets are not considered "similar openings" and are included in 210.52(A)(2)(1) "Any space 2' or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings" and so are required to have receptacles spaced 2,6,12. . Those receptacles can be located in the wall within 5 1/2' from the floor or in the floor within 18" from the wall [could be located but not required to be located above the counter].

Cabinets in/on a residential wall in a room listed in 210.52(A) that do start at floor level or just above the toekick/basemolding and do not have a usable wall space above a counter. . Those cabinets are "similar openings" or breaks as spoken of in "broken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings." and so not required to have receptacles under 210.52(A)(2)(1). . They are also not "fixed panels in exterior walls" and so not required to have receptacles under 210.52(A)(2)(2). . They are also not "fixed room dividers" "or railings" and so not required to have receptacles under 210.52(A)(2)(3).

If you are not required to have receptacles under 210.52(A)(2)(1), 210.52(A)(2)(2), or 210.52(A)(2)(3), then you're not required to have receptacles spaced 2,6,12 even if the room is listed in 210.52(A).

If the cabinet counter is classified as a kitchen/eating counter, then the receptacles must be located within 20" above the countertop [unless no backsplash] and must be spaced 1,2,4.

That's my story and I'm stickin to it !

David
 
I would not require an outlet if I knew that there were going to be cabinets like the ones Bob posted.

If you required an outlet, my thought is that it would be pretty unusable. Where would you put it other than in the floor? I wouldn't find it necesssary to have them mount one in the cabinet for the same reason we don't allow them to mount them in the kitchen cabinets.

Guess they could mount it in the book case, "just look behind the NEC.":grin:
 
jerm said:
Glad to see I'm not the only one here who has multiple voices inside their head. I do not! Yes I do! :D
Click to expand...
Roses are red, violets are blue;
I'm schizophrenic, and so am I.
 
Now you guys are just being cruel.
Or maybe I'm also posting as jerm and LarryFine and I'm being cruel to myself.

This is getting confusing ! :-?

David [I think]
 
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