210.52(C)(1),(2), &(4)

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mjf said:
Might have to surface mount if installing behind the candleholder. the end of the island has a pull drawer.
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The cabinet maker can shorten the drawer.

Besides there are plenty of spaces to mount a receptacle on this SINGLE island.
 
First the lower countertop does not qualify as requiring any 'outlets'.

If the upper countertop is less than 24" deep then 0 (zero) is the answer.

I stick with 2 as the answer because I am assuming a standard 24" depth on the upper.

Or do the measurements mean any 12 X 24 or greater?
 
George Stolz said:
A difference in elevation is not listed as an object that creates a break in counter space. It is one island, because there is plenty of counter space behind the sink to qualify.
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And I respectfully disagree-- I see 2 countertops and the article specifically mentions countertops. I do not see the sink counter extending beyond the sink by 12"
 
Dennis Alwon said:
And I respectfully disagree-- I see 2 countertops and the article specifically mentions countertops. I do not see the sink counter extending beyond the sink by 12"
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Agreed. I see two counter tops. There is definitely more than 12" of space each side of the sink so one receptacle each side of sink. The lower countertop being at a different height, it doesn't matter.
 
iwire said:
Where in that section tells us a change in elevation requires another outlet?
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The first few post started out stating that the rec. could be mounted in the elevation difference between the lower surface and the higher surface.

I would ask both of you if mounted flush in that vertical elevation difference between the two is the rec. mounted below or above the counter top space.

We always say when there is doubt then the benefit of the doubt favors the installer, not the strict application of the rule.
 
david said:
The first few post started out stating that the rec. could be mounted in the elevation difference between the lower surface and the higher surface.

I would ask both of you if mounted flush in that vertical elevation difference between the two is the rec. mounted below or above the counter top space.

We always say when there is doubt then the benefit of the doubt favors the installer, not the strict application of the rule.
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I am lost. :?
 
iwire said:
I am lost. :?
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I?m saying it is clear to me that the two surfaces have to be evaluated independently. There would never be a time when a rec. could not be placed above the lower counter surface.

But for instance the top surface extended past the elevation between the two by more than 6 inches, would it still be safe to install the rec. below the top surface.

It seems clear that these are two different counter top surfaces, I don?t think its clear enough how the rules should be applied to these two separate surfaces.

So in my world the installer gets the benefit of my doubt. If they want two rec. great.
If not then I"m not sure how the rules should be applied to these, so I would approve only one.
 
I wouldn't treat the lower surface as counter since it's height makes it less than usable as a work surface (except for midgets). I can't see the opposite long side of the unit, but that's where I would be looking to install any receptacles. I would fight the cabinet guys to make me space for one outlet, and most of my inspectors would accept that in spite of there being a sink in the middle.
 
One island, one receptacle. With the receptacle in the face at the rear of the sink it satisfies both countertops. It satisfies the upper cabinet top by being within 12" vertically of the countertop with less than 6" overhang. It satisfies the lower countertop in the traditional way.
 
(2) Island Countertop Spaces. At least one receptacle shall
be installed at each island countertop space with a long dimension
of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of
300 mm (12 in.) or greater.

No place does it say no more than one required.
 
jxofaltrds said:
(2) Island Countertop Spaces. At least one receptacle shall
be installed at each island countertop space with a long dimension
of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of
300 mm (12 in.) or greater.

No place does it say no more than one required.
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Are you not the one that posted 210.52 (C) (4)?
 
david said:
Are you not the one that posted 210.52 (C) (4)?
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Yes. I think that 2 are required because of the sink. And I would approve that installation.

I wanted to see how others viewed the 'wall space' on the lower counter. I believe that it is one island. If others thought not I wanted to see what they would require.

Also is the lower part of the island really a counter?

(2) Island Countertop Spaces. At least one receptacle shall
be installed at each island countertop space with a long dimension
of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of
300 mm (12 in.) or greater.

Is the long dim. the depth? Is the short dim. the width? Does it matter?

Obviously we have yet to reach a consensus.
 
iwire said:
Where in that section tells us a change in elevation requires another outlet?
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It does not say that but I do not see 12" behind the sink that would qualify it for only 0ne receptacle. My point is the sink counter is broken up by the sink and needs 2 receptacles. I always agreed that this is one island but I don't agree that the counter at a different level qualifies for the 12" needed behind the sink.
 
personally, in this situation, I don't think it really matters whether 1 or 2 are required. It's obviously a custom kitchen and I'm going to sell the owner at least 2 receptacles on that island. design/convenience will dictate it.

I don't ever want an owner to spend 20, 30, 40, 50k or more and not be satisfied with my final product.
 
mjf said:
personally, in this situation, I don't think it really matters whether 1 or 2 are required. It's obviously a custom kitchen and I'm going to sell the owner at least 2 receptacles on that island. design/convenience will dictate it.

I don't ever want an owner to spend 20, 30, 40, 50k or more and not be satisfied with my final product.
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It may not matter to you since you go above the code. But it does matter to those who want to be fair when enforcing the code.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
The entire piece is an island. I don't see how you can call it anything else.
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I agree with Dennis -- can't tell if the sink separates it into 2 counters -- If so 2 openings -- the back side I could possibly consider as cabnetry & no general wall space would be applicable -- some would use a plugmold across the back underneath the countertop & fopaint it invisible.
 
mjf said:
personally, in this situation, I don't think it really matters whether 1 or 2 are required. It's obviously a custom kitchen and I'm going to sell the owner at least 2 receptacles on that island. design/convenience will dictate it.

I don't ever want an owner to spend 20, 30, 40, 50k or more and not be satisfied with my final product.
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Man, I hope those figure aren't just for electric in those kitchens ;)

I usually try to get input from the owner about what they want or need, then try and balance that against what code requires. Oftentimes I have customers who don't want any receptacles in the island, which obviously won't fly with the inspector, but I also won't try and upsell something that has the potential to be an eyesore (like additional receptacles in the pictured island could certainly be...). Adding them to the dropped face, for instance, would require panel fillers so that the cover plate isn't just hanging in free air. That means additional costs from the cabinet makers for trim and finishing, and ensuring that there's sufficient space behind the location for a box to fit which will likely mean lost drawer space. It all boils down to trade-offs and I feel the customer should have the final say in that as long as it meets code.
 
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