210.52(C)(1),(2), &(4)

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jxofaltrds said:
(2) Island Countertop Spaces. At least one receptacle shall
be installed at each island countertop space with a long dimension
of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of
300 mm (12 in.) or greater.

No place does it say no more than one required.
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You can lead a fool to the code, God help him learn how to read it.

With your logic, you could say the code "requires 20 outlets" because 20 is greater than zero.

It is exactly that place that clarifies that no more than one receptacle is required on one island.

Does a cord have to pass through the sink to serve either of the taller counter areas if the receptacle is behind the sink? No. Does the cord hang to the floor because there is no counter under it? No.

An island is a chunk of counter with no wall attached to it. There is sufficient counter behind the sink to merge the two halves of the island. The height of the counters is irrelevant, they could be five feet above finished floor and be perfectly fine per the NEC.

Why are we making this difficult?
 
George it is not about making things difficult but rather of interpretation. I agree- one island but look at 210.52(C)(4) . This states that there must be 12" behind the sink in order for the countertop to be considered one counter. The counter on the kitchen side is, IMO, divided by the sink as there is not 12" of counter behind the sink. I don't see the lower counter as satisfying 210.52(C)(4).

Section 210.52(C)(2) only states that at least one receptacle must be installed (C)(4) req. another IMO. So it comes down to how we see that lower counter. Certainly if it wasn't there 2 would be req. and IMO 2 are required with that counter there simply because I don't see it as adding the 12" req. to satisfy the requirement

(4) Separate Spaces. Countertop spaces separated by rangetops, refrigerators, or sinks shall be considered as separate countertop spaces in applying the requirements of 210.52(C)(1). If a range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink is installed in an island or peninsular countertop and the depth of the countertop behind the range, counter mounted cooking unit, or sink is less than 300 mm (12 in.), the range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink shall be considered to divide the countertop space into two separate countertop spaces. Each separate countertop space shall comply with the applicable requirements in 210.52(C).
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It looks like 12" to me; and the tape measure would dictate whether one or two are required. I assumed at the angle we were looking at a 24" deep sink and the lower counter looks like half or better of that.
 
George Stolz said:
It looks like 12" to me; and the tape measure would dictate whether one or two are required. I assumed at the angle we were looking at a 24" deep sink and the lower counter looks like half or better of that.
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The countertop that the sink is installed in is not 12" beyond the sink. That is my point. One island 2 countertops. IMO, it must be at the same countertop.
 
Out of pure curiosity: if a wall counter space had a section of counter at 34" and an adjoining section at 36", with no sinks or anything else to confuse matters, would you consider that a single wall counter space or two?
 
George Stolz said:
Out of pure curiosity: if a wall counter space had a section of counter at 34" and an adjoining section at 36", with no sinks or anything else to confuse matters, would you consider that a single wall counter space or two?
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Why would it matter as wall countertop recepts are spaced for a 2' cord. A counertop min dimensions are 24" x 12" in order to req a recept -- now if you had a piece along the wall at a different height and both pieces were 11" x 24" would a recept be required? If you have an appliance garage across a 12" x 24"section of countertop that shortens the dimensions to 12" wide & 12" deep -- would you install an app recept? IMO the countertop is a single piece and on the same plane. Of course though all the if.ands. & buts are irrelevant until the actual situation comes up - then a decision would be rendered.
 
George Stolz said:
Out of pure curiosity: if a wall counter space had a section of counter at 34" and an adjoining section at 36", with no sinks or anything else to confuse matters, would you consider that a single wall counter space or two?
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I get your point but I don't see that as the same as what we have at this island. We are really looking at 2 different spaces. On set of cabinets face the kitchen and the other faces away to whatever room that is. I am certain that one receptacle would not pass around here but I see and understand your argument. I just don't agree with it.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
The countertop that the sink is installed in is not 12" beyond the sink. That is my point. One island 2 countertops. IMO, it must be at the same countertop.
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It is CLEAR that there is not 12" behind the sink. Guess we will start counting stairs as wall space. There are different planes/surfaces. Period. To argue that we have 'one' countertop is, well, stupid.

Dennis Alwon said:
I get your point but I don't see that as the same as what we have at this island. We are really looking at 2 different spaces. On set of cabinets face the kitchen and the other faces away to whatever room that is. I am certain that one receptacle would not pass around here but I see and understand your argument. I just don't agree with it.
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IMHO once one receptacle is installed the lower space is covered. Period. Again it is clear that the upper countertop is divided. To argue against that, again, is stupid.
 
jxofaltrds said:
It is CLEAR that there is not 12" behind the sink. Guess we will start counting stairs as wall space. There are different planes/surfaces. Period. To argue that we have 'one' countertop is, well, stupid.



IMHO once one receptacle is installed the lower space is covered. Period. Again it is clear that the upper countertop is divided. To argue against that, again, is stupid.
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Because someone sees it differently then you or I see it does not mean they are stupid. Lets not get into that type of argument because they can say the same about you or I. Obviously George and others see it differently and that is all there is to it.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Because someone sees it differently then you or I see it does not mean they are stupid. Lets not get into that type of argument because they can say the same about you or I.
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To be fair, I did start it. We're even now.

I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye on the matter. Both sides have their points; which to my mind means that my view is the correct view on the issue for a code enforcement official, because it is the least restrictive read on the code. 210.52 is a prime example of a section that accomplishes a bit of something (inhibiting extension cord use), and will never hope to accomplish its aim (because Walmart will continue to stock and sell cheap extension cords for the foreseeable future).

Seeing that it is a well-meaning but inherently incomplete section, whenever there is a question the inspector should default to the least restrictive interpretation of the code. I am not preaching to ignore the code, just not to stretch it into oblivion in the other direction, especially on an issue such as this; until such a time that a body is found next to such an island with one receptacle, justifying a proposal to tighten the language, giving solid enforcement grounds for the more restrictive interpretation.

But, that's one guy's opinion, do what you want.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I get your point but I don't see that as the same as what we have at this island. We are really looking at 2 different spaces.
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Dennis, respectfully, that is entirely a distinction in your own mind. There is nothing in this section to create a distinction between varying heights of a wall counter space as opposed to varying heights of an island in an island counter space.
 
jxofaltrds said:
It is CLEAR that there is not 12" behind the sink. Guess we will start counting stairs as wall space. There are different planes/surfaces. Period. To argue that we have 'one' countertop is, well, stupid.



IMHO once one receptacle is installed the lower space is covered. Period. Again it is clear that the upper countertop is divided. To argue against that, again, is stupid.
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Once again, you have started a thread asking a question in which you have already 100% made up your mind what the clear and unarguable answer is. Why ask for the input of others? Were you feeling not quite superior enough?
 
The amount of surface area behind the sink doesn't matter - it is still one island. You can put the one required outlet anywhere on that island, or you can put 100 outlets all around the island if you wish.

Depending on how much overhang there is on the upper surface (I may try to talk them into providing sufficient overhang if I can get involved early enough in the design) it may not look so bad to tuck a black plugmold directly below the top, especially if multiple outlets are desired because they do intend to use appliances on this island.
 
iwire said:
And just as respectfully to Dennis I agree with George's view.

Any idea that this is two counter spaces comes from our own personal perspective and not from anything contained in the NEC.
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So you & George do not believe the top island surface with a sink that does not have 12" or greater of that same surface behind it is one countertop?
(4) Separate Spaces. Countertop spaces separated by rangetops, refrigerators, or sinks shall be considered as separate countertop spaces in applying the requirements of 210.52(C)(1). If a range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink is installed in an island or peninsular countertop and the depth of the countertop behind the range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink is less than 300 mm (12 in.), the range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink shall be considered to divide the countertop space into two separate countertop spaces.

Hopefully this won't get complicated as it is designed to be simple - two surface planes - bottom countertop has sink with less than 12" of counter behind on the same plane -- both counterspace on either side has a dimension of greater than 12" x 24" -- the top countertop has a greater surface area of 12" x 24" and there are no cabinets on the back side wall space.
From what I've gathered George & Iwire only require one receptacle but I've been wromg before. IMO a min of 3 would be required 2 - countertop & 1 - Gen recept
 

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mjf said:
Once again, you have started a thread asking a question in which you have already 100% made up your mind what the clear and unarguable answer is. Why ask for the input of others? Were you feeling not quite superior enough?
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Just want to apologize to all the members of this forum for the above post.

It takes a lot to get me riled and 99/100 times I'm able to not react or type or hit enter. I guess this was the 100.

No place on this forum for it, justified or not, so again I apologize.
 
George Stolz said:
There is no requirement that the surfaces be on the same plane to be the same counter space.
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10-4 gotcha -- you can separate a countertop with a sink on the same plane, with a void in cabinets, a full size refrigeator, but they are not separate because they are at different heights though they physically do not touch as countertops. I will respect your opinion may not agree but thats ok too.
 
George Stolz said:
There is no requirement that the surfaces be on the same plane to be the same counter space.
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This is true but it is a matter of how one looks at it. IMO, it is 2 countertops and if you read (C)(4) it reads as though it is one countertop. As you stated I don't think we will agree on this one. The only error you made was when you said you were correct....:lol:
 
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