210.52 (f)

[sparky_magoo]

I have an argumetative apprentice. He wanted to feed the laundry Ckt. off of a bed rm. ckt. I said it was illegegal. I whipped out my code book. 210.52 (F), said it was legal. Am I reading the code wrong? I have always run a dedicated ckt. to the laundry.

The same apprentice said we could run the dishwasher and disposal off the SABC ckt. I couldn't find a violation in 210 or 422. He even said it was cool to power the hood off of the SABC.

Am I wrong, or do I not know how to use my code book? I am an old man. Is it possible I am cofussing code with common sense?

 

[480sparky]

210.52(F) only says you must have a receptacle installed for the laundry. It doesn't mention anything about the circuit. But you may want to show him/her 210.11(C)(2). It backs you up 100%.

As for the dishwasher and disposal, proudly announce 210.52(B)(1) and (2). (1) says the SABC shall serve all wall and floor outlets, countertop outlets and the fridge. The dish/disp are none of these, and would be excluded by (2).

Be sure to bet lunch on it first. :grin:

 

[sparky_magoo]

Thanks a million 480Sparky. I thought I was corrcect, but did'nt have time to deal with an argumentative apprentice. I looked in my code book, but couldn't find it. thanks again.

I'm new to the company. I am the certified journeyman. He is the apprentice. He likes to argue with me. We don't have time for me to spend time in my code book.

I think I know how to rope a house. I will humble him tomorrow.

 

[480sparky]

Hey, don't knock it. Sometimes questions like these really get the ole' brain juices flowing and force you to look things up. I thought the same thing you did, but it took me a while to actually look it up... one of those "Dammit, I know it's in here, I just can't find it!" moments.

 

[infinity]

Print this out and show it to him:

210.11(C) Dwelling Units.
(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).
(2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by 210.52(F). This circuit shall have no other outlets.

210.52(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.
Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.
(2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.
Exception No. 1: A receptacle installed solely for the electrical supply to and support of an electric clock in any of the rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1).
Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I have an argumetative apprentice. He wanted to feed the laundry Ckt. off of a bed rm. ckt. I said it was illegegal. I whipped out my code book. 210.52 (F), said it was legal. Am I reading the code wrong? I have always run a dedicated ckt. to the laundry.

The same apprentice said we could run the dishwasher and disposal off the SABC ckt. I couldn't find a violation in 210 or 422. He even said it was cool to power the hood off of the SABC.

Am I wrong, or do I not know how to use my code book? I am an old man. Is it possible I am cofussing code with common sense?

I would not put up with him arguing with me for more than 1 day.Here i can simply send him back to the office and tell them why

 

[haskindm]

Do your apprentice a favor. Instead of arguing with him and spending your time looking up answers to prove him wrong, admit that you had never thought of it that way and ask him to show you in the NEC where he is right. The time he spends looking things up in the NEC will do him a world of good as he progresses in his career. He will learn alot, and occasionally he my teach you something. After he spends time finding the answers, he is much more likely to remember the lesson than if you just tell him.

 

[sparky_magoo]

Do your apprentice a favor. Instead of arguing with him and spending your time looking up answers to prove him wrong, admit that you had never thought of it that way and ask him to show you in the NEC where he is right. The time he spends looking things up in the NEC will do him a world of good as he progresses in his career. He will learn alot, and occasionally he my teach you something. After he spends time finding the answers, he is much more likely to remember the lesson than if you just tell him.

I can't get him to actually use a code book. It's a shame. His questions are good. It makes me look things up. It helps to seperate tradition from code requirements.

 

[480sparky]

He's just being lazy and wants you to look it up instead of himself. Tell him he can do it his way if he can show you in the codebook that it can be done that way.

 

[charlie b]

He's just being lazy and wants you to look it up instead of himself. Tell him he can do it his way if he can show you in the codebook that it can be done that way.

My sentiments exactly. While you are at it, ask him to look up the word "apprentice" in the dictionary. The one on my desk defines the word as "A person who works for another in order to learn a trade." If he is unwilling to accept the possibility that you have something to teach, then the relationship will never work.

To be sure, apprentices can teach masters, just as engineering students can teach licensed professional engineers. But that is a small part (albeit an important part) of the relationship.

 

[M. D.]

When you say you "have an argumentative apprentice" does his being allowed to work rely on your certificate? If it does tell him not to bother you with statements of code knowledge if he can't even be bothered enough to open the book, and watch him like a hawk.

 

[sparky_magoo]

When you say you "have an argumentative apprentice" does his being allowed to work rely on your certificate? If it does tell him not to bother you with statements of code knowledge if he can't even be bothered enough to open the book, and watch him like a hawk.

Great statement. I have twenty plus years to his two. Just because he has done "it" wrong for two years, doesn't make it right.

I can't begin to descibe how tired I am of so-called electricians who have no respect for the NEC. If they can make something work and pass inspection, they think it is a good installation. They may obsess on the neatness of wires no one will ever see, while making blatant violations.

 

[480sparky]

My sentiments exactly. While you are at it, ask him to look up the word "apprentice" in the dictionary.

He should also be aware that in two years, he is going to be considered a journeyman-level electrician (have him look that up in the dictionary as well), and he will be expected to ACT, WORK and THINK like a journeyman-level electrician. Especially if he wants to get PAID to be a journeyman-level electrician.

And part of being a journeyman-level electrician is to know the Codebook. Not necessarily have it memorized verbatim, but at least know how to look things up in The Book so the installation is correct. This applies to the NEC as well as the UL white book, 70E, OSHA 1926, etc. etc. He's not going to last long if he can't be bothered to look it up.

If he is unable (or unwilling) to look it up now, he's not going to in another two years. And if he can't/won't look it up, he's not going to pass the test. And if he can't pass the test, he won't be licensed as a journeyman and his career will be at a dead stop. I don't know anyone who's been in the trade for twenty years and is still a fourth-year apprentice.

 

[sparky_magoo]

He should also be aware that in two years, he is going to be considered a journeyman-level electrician (have him look that up in the dictionary as well), and he will be expected to ACT, WORK and THINK like a journeyman-level electrician. Especially if he wants to get PAID to be a journeyman-level electrician.

And part of being a journeyman-level electrician is to know the Codebook. Not necessarily have it memorized verbatim, but at least know how to look things up in The Book so the installation is correct. This applies to the NEC as well as the UL white book, 70E, OSHA 1926, etc. etc. He's not going to last long if he can't be bothered to look it up.

If he is unable (or unwilling) to look it up now, he's not going to in another two years. And if he can't/won't look it up, he's not going to pass the test. And if he can't pass the test, he won't be licensed as a journeyman and his career will be at a dead stop. I don't know anyone who's been in the trade for twenty years and is still a fourth-year apprentice.

This morning, I came to work with your code sections. I had called him on 210.52 yesterday. He wouldn't hear any code from me.

My predecessor taught this apprentice. He earned his C-10 and started his own company. I took over for him and inherited his apprentice.

The owner thinks this apprentice is the best thing since sliced bread.
I think this guy is a hack.

I went on a service call to a house wired by these two. I found a new bathroom ckt. wired with 14/2. I reported this to the owner. He couldn't believe it. Owner said the old journeyman must have been "distracted".

IMO, this long gone journeyman didn't give a F***. Now I have a bad attitude apprentice who won't listen to me.

I obsess on this forum. I know the code.

The owner is in denial that his last guy was doing hack work.

The owner is awesome. I love working for him, but how do I tell him his star apprentice is a "know it all" hack who won't listen to me?

I tell him how it is going to be. He does it, but I am tired of his BS.

 

[480sparky]

He wouldn't hear any code from me.

Maybe he'll understand "Take your tools and go home." ? Sounds like he's not gonna change. Maybe you should look for your inheritance somewhere else.

Owner said the old journeyman must have been "distracted".

By what, making money by doing substandard work?

 

[sparky_magoo]

The apprentice always backs down and does what I tell him. He's a really good kid. I wish I could flip him to wanting to do everything code compliant.

He thinks the world of himself. I mentioned earlier, he puts great emphasis on neatness.

My work was way neater and I staple every four feet through the ceiling. He doesn't. I mentioned it to him on the ride home. He said "I stapled the F*** out of everything". I also got more done than him, inspite of proper stapling. Sometimes old men out perform young punks.

I figure I will point out the loose runs to the inspector next week. Maybe a failed inspection will teach the owner that his star boy isn't "all that".

BTW, did I mention he doesn't have a license and I have to taxi him to and fro on my own time?

 

[360Youth]

I can't get him to actually use a code book. It's a shame. His questions are good. It makes me look things up. It helps to seperate tradition from code requirements.

I can't deal with that one. If they won't use the code book, they won't last. I don't care how careful and fast they may be, after a while you will bet tired of telling/reminding them of code issues.

 

[celtic]

I figure I will point out the loose runs to the inspector next week. Maybe a failed inspection will teach the owner that his star boy isn't "all that".

That may back-fire on you ....owner may wonder why YOU allowed a non-complaint install get an inspection.

BTW, did I mention he doesn't have a license and I have to taxi him to and fro on my own time?

"Have to"?
By who's order?

 

[360Youth]

BTW, did I mention he doesn't have a license and I have to taxi him to and fro on my own time?

We need to end this thread before I won't be able to sleep tonight. I'm all for helping a guy out and getting him/her on their feet, and do a lot of things to help the company out on my own time (or at least I try :roll: , but working here makes you want to do those things) but I don't have to do anything on my own time.

 

[sparky_magoo]

"Have to"?
By who's order?

The owner. If this kid was the kick-butt apprentice sold to me, I might put up with it. My wife is tired of the extra time I put in as a taxi driver.

I'm tired of it too.