225.31 - Required on Pools

[SeniorInspector]

This is my first time to the forum to be gentle with me please.

1.) 225.31 says all ungrounded conductors that supply or pass thought the building or structure needs to have disconnection means.

Q: If the "structure" is a pool panel and is indeed a structure would it require disconnection means at the panel for the pool to disconnect the ungrounded feeders per the NEC.

Q: The 6 disconnect or 6 throw allowance would not play a part in this....would it ?

In other words, can they use a MLO panel with no disconnection means ont he feeders to this "structure".

I say they need to still have disconnection means at the pool panel to disconnect all ungrounded conductors that supply this panel.

Thanks in advance

 

[SeniorInspector]

For the record I believe a Disconnection means is needed on the feeders to this seperate "strucuture" which is the pool panel. he could backfeed a breaker to achieve this or hit a disconnection means beside the panel and then feed the pool panel.

Just disconnection means, the OCPD is handled back at the panel as required in 408.36(A)

 

[M. D.]

I think the six swipe rule is compliant ..
this is based on 05 ,.. I'll try to find a link to the whole Q&A .This is a guy I would consider an expert in the field ,..for what that is worth..

This is from NFPA diegest

.........In all likelihood, the panelboard supplying the pool equipment is a lighting and appliance branch circuit panelboard, as covered in Section 408.34(A). Lighting and appliance branch circuit panel­boards are required to be individually protected on the supply side by not more than two main circuit breakers or two sets of fuses. This requirement would seem to preclude using the ?six disconnect rule? at this panelboard.
However, Exception No. 1 to Section 408.36 allows you to omit individual overcurrent protection in the panelboard as long as the over current device protecting the feeder conductors that supply the panelboard has a rating or setting not greater than the rating of the panelboard. Assuming that the rating or setting of the feeder overcurrent protective device is not greater than the rating of the panelboard, the six disconnect rule at the panelboard location is permitted......
.

Jeff Sargent, of NFPA?s Electrical Engineering Department, has been a master electrician, inspector, instructor, consultant, and author. He was senior editor of the 2005 National Electrical Code Handbook and is executive secretary to the NFPA Electrical Section, as well as staff liaison to several NFPA technical committees.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Intermatic makes a MLO panel that includes clock ,transformer, and 6 spaces for breakers.Far as i can see its fine and meets code.Some reason behind thinking its not ?

 

[SeniorInspector]

So are you saying since no OCP is needed in the detached structures panelboard (which I agree with) that it also means that no disconnection means is required on the feeders that feed the panel itself?

So you are saying 225.33 and the 6 disconnect rules and no disconnect is needed on the feeder itself.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

What the exception permits for a lighting and appliance branch circuit panelboard (most of our panel installs) as long as the overcurrent protection ahead of the panel is not larger than the rating of the panelboard, it will not be restricted to the two disconnecting means. One is permitted to install up to 6 disconnecting means at the pool panel.

 

[iwire]

What about this from SeniorInspector's other thread?

The code rule requires that the disconnecting means be suitable for use as service equipment. In many cases this rule requires the use of a single main as many panels are listed as suitable for use as service equipment only when a single main is installed.

I agree with Don.

I thought after a long thread about this we all had agreed that the panel would have to be listed as service equipment without a single main breaker?

 

[M. D.]

What about this from SeniorInspector's other thread?



I agree with Don.

I thought after a long thread about this we all had agreed that the panel would have to be listed as service equipment without a single main breaker?

I agree with Don too,.. but this is , and has become ,.a very confusing issue given the fact that the NEC does not define a Lighting and appliance panel board any longer.
http://www.ul.com/regulators/PanelboardsMG_March2006_Final.pdf

23. Class CTL lighting and appliance panelboards without main overcurrent protection usually are not
marked suitable for service equipment use. Such panelboards, with not more than 10 percent of their
overcurrent devices rated 30 amperes or less, however, may be suitable for use as service equipment. They
are marked ?Suitable for use as service equipment when not more than six main disconnecting means are
provided and when not used as a lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboard; see Section 408.34 of
the NEC.?

​

10. A lighting and appliance panelboard marked as suitable for use as service equipment is limited to two
main disconnects. To prevent overloading, the current rating of such panelboards shall equal the combined
current ratings of the two disconnects as required by Section 408.36(A) of the NEC. Where main
disconnects are not provided with the panelboard, the NEC requires that main overcurrent protection be
provided in the feeder circuit supplying the panelboard.

​

​

​

​

and finally
​

Circuit breakers, either molded case, fused, or in combination with ground fault circuit
interrupters, are suitable for use as service disconnects. Other devices that are used to protect
individual circuits, circuits within equipment or appliances, or circuit protectors without on and
off features, are not suitable for use as service disconnects.

​

​

​

So if I use the above highlighted stuff am I not in compliance??

​

 

[dnem]

So are you saying since no OCP is needed in the detached structures panelboard (which I agree with) that it also means that no disconnection means is required on the feeders that feed the panel itself?

So you are saying 225.33 and the 6 disconnect rules and no disconnect is needed on the feeder itself.

It seems to me that you're using service language to talk about a feeder. . It might be the supply to the separate structure but it's still a feeder. . Service [+ also tap] conductors are protected at their load termination. . Feeder [+ also branch circuit] conductors are protected at their line/supply end. . So when you're talking about 6 disconnects at the pool panel structure, you're not also looking at the disconnect for the feeder itself. . The disconnect for the feeder itself is back in the supplying panel somewhere else.

Don't mix up service/tap concepts with feeder/branch circuit concepts.

As far as the 1 or 6 disconnects for the pool equipment, I think that's being addressed pretty thoroughly by others.

 

[M. D.]

Just got back from a service call,.. I stopped in the supply house and while the young lady was getting my stuff, I looked at an 8 circuit can from Siemens ,.. it is still listed this way. Does any one know if this listing will change given the fact that as of 08 there is no such thing as a lighting and appliance panelboard???

“Suitable for use as service equipment when not more than six main disconnecting means are
provided and when not used as a lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboard; see Section 408.34 of
the NEC.”

 

[iwire]

It seems to me that you're using service language to talk about a feeder. . It might be the supply to the separate structure but it's still a feeder. .

Regardless of it being a feeder or service the rules are pretty much identical when the feeder supples a separate building or structure.

No more then 6 throws of the hand, a grounding electrode system and the disconnecting means must be listed as service equipment per 225.36.

 

[dnem]

Regardless of it being a feeder or service the rules are pretty much identical when the feeder supples a separate building or structure.

No more then 6 throws of the hand, a grounding electrode system and the disconnecting means must be listed as service equipment per 225.36.

Read it again, Bob. . You missed the point. . My post had nothing to do with 1, 6, or 20 disconnects or the disconnect being listed for whatever.

 

[SeniorInspector]

What about this from SeniorInspector's other thread?



I agree with Don.

I thought after a long thread about this we all had agreed that the panel would have to be listed as service equipment without a single main breaker?

Sorry. I am new and did not know about a previous discussion, I promise to learn the search feature from here on.

 

[SeniorInspector]

It seems to me that you're using service language to talk about a feeder. . It might be the supply to the separate structure but it's still a feeder. . Service [+ also tap] conductors are protected at their load termination. . Feeder [+ also branch circuit] conductors are protected at their line/supply end. . So when you're talking about 6 disconnects at the pool panel structure, you're not also looking at the disconnect for the feeder itself. . The disconnect for the feeder itself is back in the supplying panel somewhere else.

Don't mix up service/tap concepts with feeder/branch circuit concepts.

As far as the 1 or 6 disconnects for the pool equipment, I think that's being addressed pretty thoroughly by others.

i dont agree. I am not mixing anything in my statement. The Overcurrent for the sub-panel ( feeder ) is protected at the main panel. I was just trying to clarify the disconnection requirements at the remote sub-panel. It really is going to depend on the rating of the enclosure and such...this is what I figured but needed to feel what you all thought on the process.

 

[M. D.]

Sorry. I am new and did not know about a previous discussion, I promise to learn the search feature from here on.

No need to be sorry , look at the number of posts Iwire has ,..there is not much he has not discussed,.. ask any question you have ,no question asked is too simple ,..for proof search big oops .. 1,000 posts on is a "switch an outlet"... or the on going nail plate debate,... Good Grief:smile: Big oops ... need suggestions

I think you will find the panel at the pool structure is marked,...

“Suitable for use as service equipment when not more than six main disconnecting means are
provided and when not used as a lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboard; see Section 408.34 of
the NEC.”

 

[dnem]

i dont agree. I am not mixing anything in my statement. The Overcurrent for the sub-panel ( feeder ) is protected at the main panel. I was just trying to clarify the disconnection requirements at the remote sub-panel. It really is going to depend on the rating of the enclosure and such...this is what I figured but needed to feel what you all thought on the process.

"I am not mixing anything in my statement. The Overcurrent for the sub-panel ( feeder ) ....."
You just did it again !.
The overcurrent for the subpanel itself and the loads supplied by the subpanel are being debated here. . But then you bring up the feeder. . The feeder is the conductors between panels and is not protected at the load end. . You can't say "subpanel (feeder)" and then get answers that apply to both. . They're 2 separate things. . Your 6 disconnects in the subpanel will not be there to protect the feeder.