230.71(B)

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letgomywago

Senior Member
Location
Washington state and Oregon coast
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residential electrician
I am sorry but I do not understand your point. What is the this emergency disconnect rule. If you are speaking of the old wording of max of 6 flips of handles. That applied to all services, not just residential. Oregon could of had some other meaning.
When the 2020 added this prohibiting 6 disconnect split bus or main lug panels it was also at the same time as requirements for 1 and 2 family homes to add outside emergency disconnects. The NEC revamped how service equipment is designed and installed sweepingly.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
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Location
Illinois
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retired electrician
Really, I replace main breakers and or change feeders on panels all the time without any danger of contacting live parts. I know that the left coast has weird panels and ringless meter bases . That stuff is just unsafe componentry, Yeah lets go and make new stupid rules that affect others.
If you are the contractor owner and not an employee, the OSHA rules do not apply to. However they do apply to all employees and the fine for working on energized equipment could easily put a small contractor out of business. This was about making the equipment both safe to work on and to comply with the OSHA requirements that apply to all employees.

Sure not real likely you will get caught unless there in an injury, but have been on two jobs where OSHA inspectors driving on the road adjacent to the project saw something and came on the the job site and wrote violations. One was a repeat fall arrest violation for the general contractor and the fine was in the $25k range.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Location
Illinois
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retired electrician
I believe the emergency disconnect rule only applies to single and two family homes. Large meter gangs come with main disconnect switches often from utility requirements and dont need to be changed by this. In unipack style meter gangs you have the line side disconnect in a separate compartment and are all good afterward.
Yes, if there is a line side main, any type of multimeter enclosure is compliant with the 2020 and 2023 code rules, however, at least around here, that line side main was only used where there were more than six meters. The typical six meter assembly is not compliant with the 2020 and 2023 requirements. I am not sure that there are any on the market that have been designed to the new UL 67 requirements that can be used without a line side main.
 

letgomywago

Senior Member
Location
Washington state and Oregon coast
Occupation
residential electrician
Yes, if there is a line side main, any type of multimeter enclosure is compliant with the 2020 and 2023 code rules, however, at least around here, that line side main was only used where there were more than six meters. The typical six meter assembly is not compliant with the 2020 and 2023 requirements. I am not sure that there are any on the market that have been designed to the new UL 67 requirements that can be used without a line side main.
I installed 5 and 6 gangs that would about 4 years ago that had 150s in them. They were siemens. One was the stacked style and the other the more standard wide style.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
If you are the contractor owner and not an employee, the OSHA rules do not apply to. However they do apply to all employees and the fine for working on energized equipment could easily put a small contractor out of business. This was about making the equipment both safe to work on and to comply with the OSHA requirements that apply to all employees.

Sure not real likely you will get caught unless there in an injury, but have been on two jobs where OSHA inspectors driving on the road adjacent to the project saw something and came on the the job site and wrote violations. One was a repeat fall arrest violation for the general contractor and the fine was in the $25k range.
What new rule does not allow a qualified person with proper PPE to work on live energized equipment?
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Fight the power!
I'm out in a couple years time, I'll just gripe till then. What's the point. The code people do what they want. Look they got us AFCI, self test GFCI...... It made no difference how much backlash.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
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Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
What new rule does not allow a qualified person with proper PPE to work on live energized equipment?
Working on energized equipment has not been permitted by OSHA for decades, with the exception of troubleshooting and "justifiable energized work". Almost no energized work can be justified when you look at the OSHA rules. PPE and insulated tools do not change anything.
 
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letgomywago

Senior Member
Location
Washington state and Oregon coast
Occupation
residential electrician
Working on energized equipment has not been permitted by OSHA for decades, with the exception of troubleshooting and "justifiable energized work". Almost no energized work can be justified when you look at the OSHA rules. PPE does and insulated tools do not change anything.
That's only if you don't write your own policy vs 70E and change things and prepare to be able to defend it in court. In the end its smart to make it possible to work dead even though most jmen can work live on a little low incident energy panel no issue.

It all comes down to how much is a person worth and honestly a person isn't worth saving a few minutes or even a few hours and a few phone calls.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
That's only if you don't write your own policy vs 70E and change things and prepare to be able to defend it in court. In the end its smart to make it possible to work dead even though most jmen can work live on a little low incident energy panel no issue.

It all comes down to how much is a person worth and honestly a person isn't worth saving a few minutes or even a few hours and a few phone calls.
Even if you write your own policy, you have to be able to justify the energized work, and that is not easy to do.

Even where you have something that they don't think they can have a planned outage for, you have to ask what will happen if an unplanned outage results from the energized work.

One plant I worked at had a policy that said the plant electrical engineer and plant manager could sign off on energized work, but it also said if there was an incident resulting from that energized work, both of those people would be fired....needless to say, there was never a justified live work permit issued.
 

letgomywago

Senior Member
Location
Washington state and Oregon coast
Occupation
residential electrician
Even if you write your own policy, you have to be able to justify the energized work, and that is not easy to do.

Even where you have something that they don't think they can have a planned outage for, you have to ask what will happen if an unplanned outage results from the energized work.

One plant I worked at had a policy that said the plant electrical engineer and plant manager could sign off on energized work, but it also said if there was an incident resulting from that energized work, both of those people would be fired....needless to say, there was never a justified live work permit issued.
Thing is is if that ever happened they'd have to shut down too even with that policy since when not using 70e unaltered you can't keep your plant open till osha signs off again.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Thing is is if that ever happened they'd have to shut down too even with that policy since when not using 70e unaltered you can't keep your plant open till osha signs off again.
I ain't talking about a plant that may have higher voltage than 120/240. What is the Arc fault cal at a 6 meter residential meter pak or even a SFR. Please you give these CMP's a inch they take a mile. They do not know how to write codes with completeness and with reasonal specificity. They write catch all.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
I ain't talking about a plant that may have higher voltage than 120/240. What is the Arc fault cal at a 6 meter residential meter pak or even a SFR. Please you give these CMP's a inch they take a mile. They do not know how to write codes with completeness and with reasonal specificity. They write catch all.
The OSHA and 70E rules apply to 120/240 volt services. There may not be much of an arc flash hazard but there is a shock hazard.

Once again, it is very rare that the CMPs write code...they act on proposals and comments that are submitted.

Maybe in a few years for smaller services this will all go away as we move to 400 volt "digital electricity" as covered in new Article 726, Class 4 Fault-Managed Power Systems.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
The OSHA and 70E rules apply to 120/240 volt services. There may not be much of an arc flash hazard but there is a shock hazard.

Once again, it is very rare that the CMPs write code...they act on proposals and comments that are submitted.

Maybe in a few years for smaller services this will all go away as we move to 400 volt "digital electricity" as covered in new Article 726, Class 4 Fault-Managed Power Systems.
Ahh so the CMP never wordsmith a code? Just a up or down vote?
 

anbm

Senior Member
Location
TX
Occupation
Designer
Here is the story... The facility has existing 5,000A MLO switchboard (480/277, 3ph) with two main distribution breakers (2,000A and 1,200A) located in separate vertical sections. The owner requested to replace existing main service feeder to the switchboard with new feeder. The electrical inspector said the switchboard does not comply with NEC 2020 article 230.71 because the two main distribution breakers connect to same incoming main horizontal bus and they are still part of one switchboard enclosure. To comply with NEC 230.71 (B), either each swbd distribution breaker cannot share same incoming horizontal bus, or two separate switchboards must be used – i.e. each switchboard with have its own main CB and be fed from same utility transformer with separate circuit. In my opinion, this is not how code language (230.71(B)(3) says, it does not require two separate switchboards as long as each main disc. section had separate vertical barrier. Can you enlighten me? If two switchboards are used, then the building needs two separate meters even one owner???
 

don_resqcapt19

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Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Here is the story... The facility has existing 5,000A MLO switchboard (480/277, 3ph) with two main distribution breakers (2,000A and 1,200A) located in separate vertical sections. The owner requested to replace existing main service feeder to the switchboard with new feeder. The electrical inspector said the switchboard does not comply with NEC 2020 article 230.71 because the two main distribution breakers connect to same incoming main horizontal bus and they are still part of one switchboard enclosure. To comply with NEC 230.71 (B), either each swbd distribution breaker cannot share same incoming horizontal bus, or two separate switchboards must be used – i.e. each switchboard with have its own main CB and be fed from same utility transformer with separate circuit. In my opinion, this is not how code language (230.71(B)(3) says, it does not require two separate switchboards as long as each main disc. section had separate vertical barrier. Can you enlighten me? If two switchboards are used, then the building needs two separate meters even one owner???
It appears that the existing equipment is compliant with the 2020 code, but it really doesn't matter. The equipment was compliant at the time of the original installation, and replacing the feeder does not change that.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Hello again,
I have been thinking about this change made to the 2 -6 disconnects rule with my fellow EC's.

Do I have this correct. If you have a main switch ahead of the multi-meter stack you do not need to have separate compartments and such.
Meaning you can have the style of meter stacks that have the meters on top and the breakers below with a flip top cover and barrier to the live parts when a breaker is installed.
If that is the case then it furthers my argument of the absurdity of the wording of this and many other codes.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Hello again,
I have been thinking about this change made to the 2 -6 disconnects rule with my fellow EC's.

Do I have this correct. If you have a main switch ahead of the multi-meter stack you do not need to have separate compartments and such.
Meaning you can have the style of meter stacks that have the meters on top and the breakers below with a flip top cover and barrier to the live parts when a breaker is installed.
If that is the case then it furthers my argument of the absurdity of the wording of this and many other codes.
As long as it's possible to isolate the neutral from the can. A lot of the up-to-six-meter packs I've seen are built like they can only be used for service equipment.

Remember the code does not care about meters. At all. But utilities do.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
As long as it's possible to isolate the neutral from the can. A lot of the up-to-six-meter packs I've seen are built like they can only be used for service equipment.

Remember the code does not care about meters. At all. But utilities do.
See Exception #2 to 250.142(A).
 
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