230.85 flaw?

kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
jaggedben said:
But what if it isn't? We all know that plenty of older installations aren't compliant with the latest code for whatever reasons.

Let's also say for the sake of argument that the service entrance cable or conduit is inaccessible without demolition and refinish, or it's too small to pull an EGC into, or something like that.

For the sake of incentivizing implementation of 230.85, should there not be some kind of exception?
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Rules possibly vary but I'd guess most places make you bring it up to current code if replacing such a panelboard. They may let you add a branch circuit if not modifying the panel or it's supply, then there may be some that won't let you do anything without making it right.
 
J

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
electrofelon said:
I am uncertain what you are saying here. Are you saying if it is Suitable for use as service equipment than I can ignore if the the AFC exceeds the SCCR? :unsure:
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If it is on the supply side of the meter it is not expected to interrupt fault current, similar to how a meter and socket does not have an SCCR either. If it is the service entrance device then it needs to have the proper SCCR.
 
electrofelon

electrofelon

Senior Member
Location
Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
jim dungar said:
If it is on the supply side of the meter it is not expected to interrupt fault current, similar to how a meter and socket does not have an SCCR either. If it is the service entrance device then it needs to have the proper SCCR.
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I dont think I agree Jim. First, I dont see what being on the supply side of a meter has to do with anything. Yes meter sockets have SCCR's, see attached photo. IF something is not an interrupting device then of course it has a SCCR not an AIC, but I dont see its location changing anything. I dont see anything saying we can ignore SCCR just because its not a service entrance device.
 

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electrofelon

electrofelon

Senior Member
Location
Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
petersonra said:
Read last sentence of 110.10
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I admit I am not entirely sure what that means, but it seems a leap to me to say that SUSE means we can ignore SCCR ratings. This document from Ul explaining what SUSE means says nothing that supports that.

  1. SUITABLE FOR USE AS SERVICE EQUIPMENT​

    These are the basic requirements that a panelboard rated 1000 volts or less must meet in order to be used as service equipment:
    1. Service disconnecting means must be provided.
    2. Each service disconnect provided must have a switching feature that disconnects all conductors from the service-entrance conductors and that is suitable for use as a service disconnect. There is one exception: the neutral service conductor can be disconnected by removing the wires from the pressure wire connectors on the service neutral bus as noted in Section 230.75 of the NEC.
      Disconnects and overcurrent protection which are located on the supply side of the service disconnecting means may be located behind a deadfront or screwed-on cover if:
      1. The circuit being controlled is installed as part of the Certified (Listed) panelboard,
      2. the circuit being controlled in contained within the panelboard enclosure, and
      3. the panelboard is marked, adjacent to the main disconnect(s) to alert the user that the main(s) does not disconnect control and instrument circuits.
        In general, snap, toggle or similar switches, are not acceptable because their internal electrical spacings are too small.
      Circuit breakers, either molded case, fused, or in combination with ground fault circuit interrupters, are suitable for use as service disconnects. Other devices that are used to protect individual circuits, circuits within equipment or appliances, or circuit protectors without on and off features, are not suitable for use as service disconnects.
      The removal of a plug or cartridge fuse from its fuseholder, while serving to de-energize the circuit, does not provide service disconnection. Panelboard switches, pullout switches and some industrial control switches are suitable as service disconnects. Note that pullout switches, while they serve as a fuse puller, do have switchblades and contact jaws and are tested as switches.
    3. Overcurrent protection suitable as branch or feeder protection must be provided for service conductors. Miscellaneous, miniature and micro fuses, thermal cutouts, relays and other supplementary overcurrent protection are not acceptable; however, “special purpose fuses” which are suitably rated for use as branch circuit, feeder, or service overcurrent protection may be used if:
      1. The fuses are non-interchangeable with fuses of incompatible ratings, and
      2. The panelboard is marked for use with the specific special purpose fuses.
    4. The number of service disconnects and overcurrent devices must conform to the NEC, Section 230.71.
    5. As required in Section 230.95 of the NEC, Panelboards rated for use on solidly grounded wye electrical services of more than 150 volts to ground must provide ground fault protection for each service disconnect rated 1000 amperes, or more. An exception is covered under Item 53.
    6. There must be provision for connecting a grounded service conductor and a grounding-electrode conductor. If there is a neutral bus, a means to bond the panelboard enclosure or mounting pan to the neutral bus is required unless the bus is mounted in electrical contact with the enclosure or pan.
      In general, the grounding-electrode connection in service equipment is required to be made to the grounded service conductor at the neutral bar. However, Section 250.24(A)(4) of the NEC permits this connection to be made to the equipment grounding terminal bar, provided the main bonding jumper is a wire or a bus bar and is installed from the neutral bar to the equipment grounding terminal bar. If in a panelboard suitable for use as service equipment, the main bonding jumper wire or bus bar is provided for field installation, instructions are marked on the panelboard for proper installation of the jumper.
    A panelboard with the neutral insulated from the enclosure may be marked “Suitable for use as service equipment when not more than six main disconnecting means are provided” when the following conditions are met:
    1. There must be at least one combination of switching units that can be mounted to occupy all available space for switching units; and, whether by using handle ties or similar devices, not more than six main disconnects will result (including factory-installed disconnects).
    2. With this combination of switching units, no more than six overcurrent-protective devices will be connected to each ungrounded service conductor.
      Note that a panelboard marked “Suitable for use as service equipment when not more than six main disconnecting means are provided” may permit some combinations of switching units varying in ampere ratings and physical size that would exceed the six disconnect rule on a completely filled panelboard. The six disconnect rule can be exceeded if handle-ties are not installed where needed.
      Panelboards marked as noted above and used as service equipment must have the neutral bonded to the enclosure as required by Section 408.3(C) of the NEC. These panelboards are provided with means to accomplish this bonding. When the panelboard is not used as service equipment, the neutral bonding means must not be installed. This would violate Section 250.24(A)(5) of the NEC and would constitute a fire hazard as noted in Item 50 of this Marking Guide.
      A panelboard with the neutral factory-bonded to the enclosure is marked “Suitable only for use as service equipment. Install no more than six main disconnecting means.”
    Some panelboards may have the required number of handles and service overcurrent devices, when the maximum number of the smallest units are installed and used without handles ties or similar devices. These panelboards may have the shorter marking “Suitable for use as service equipment” or “Suitable only for use as service equipment.”
    A panelboard intended for service equipment use must have the marking “Service Disconnects” near the switch or circuit breaker handles. If this is not done in the factory, pressure sensitive labels must be provided. This marking identifies the service disconnects when branch disconnects are also present. This is required by Section 230.70(B) of the NEC.
 
M

MyCleveland

Senior Member
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
petersonra said:
Read last sentence of 110.10
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The last sentence is what I am assuming everyone is hanging on to...
You stated..."The code says if it is listed for a specific use it is ok regardless of sccr"
It is stated in the literature as "Switches not factory bonded are shipped suitable for use as service equipment."
OR
"Switches that are shipped from the factory with a bonded neutral are suitable only for
use as service equipment."
Your arguing it does not need to be a concern because of its location NOT being service equipment....but the literature says otherwise.
 
J

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
jim dungar said:
If it is on the supply side of the meter it is not expected to interrupt fault current, similar to how a meter and socket does not have an SCCR either. If it is the service entrance device then it needs to have the proper SCCR.
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Does equipment under control of the POCO need to follow the NEC?
 
electrofelon

electrofelon

Senior Member
Location
Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
jim dungar said:
Does equipment under control of the POCO need to follow the NEC?
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Equipment on the supply side of the service point no. Pretty much all self contained meter sockets and CT cabinets where I work are on the load side of the service point and are supplied, owned and maintained by the customer. There are some odd cases where Poco supplies and owns equipment on the load side of the service point, and I find it little bit of a gray area as it doesn't even fit into the NEC concept of a service having a service point.
 
M

MyCleveland

Senior Member
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
jim dungar said:
Does equipment under control of the POCO need to follow the NEC?
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I am thinking am example for discussion would be a disconnect ahead of a 480V 100A or 200A meter base...where the utility does not provide the disconnect but demands it be installed. Then YES, if I am directing an EC to install it, the piece of equipment has to be rated for the AFC it is exposed to.
 
J

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
jaggedben said:
If it's owned by the customer, yes.

Conversely though, if some kind if meter disconnect is under the exclusive control of the utility, I can't say it could satisfy 230.85.
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The underground feed meter socket only, on the side of my house, is owned by me but installed per the POCO requirements not those of the NEC.

So the real answer is 'It depends'.
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
MyCleveland said:
I am thinking am example for discussion would be a disconnect ahead of a 480V 100A or 200A meter base...where the utility does not provide the disconnect but demands it be installed. Then YES, if I am directing an EC to install it, the piece of equipment has to be rated for the AFC it is exposed to.
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Then that building would not be a one or two-family dwelling which 230.85 refers to.
 
J

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
jim dungar said:
The underground feed meter socket only, on the side of my house, is owned by me but installed per the POCO requirements not those of the NEC.

So the real answer is 'It depends'.
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Not sure what your point is. The NEC has no special requirements for meter sockets that I'm aware of. Just 110.3(B). But, to the point, just because no one enforced NEC requirements on it doesn't mean no one could have.
 
M

MyCleveland

Senior Member
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Dennis Alwon said:
Then that building would not be a one or two-family dwelling which 230.85 refers to.
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Hello Dennis
How does 230.85 help here...it states equipment must have a SCCR = or > than AFC. I thought the argument was a manufacturer that puts a SE label on it was somehow exempted from meeting this requirement or should I say just do not look under the hood.

Maybe I am just getting to scatter brained to keep up.
 
M

MyCleveland

Senior Member
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
electrofelon said:
I would say it is installed per BOTH the POCO requirements and the NEC. Does the POCO require something that is an NEC violation?
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I thought this discussion was over years ago. Yes the utility company's draw something up and do zero research on whether a product can be pulled off the shelf to meet the environment it will be inserted into. After bringing this issue up with the metering dept they revised the standard to allow a FUSIBLE disconnect if necessary.
 
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