230.85 flaw?

[Sparky38]

230.85 is mostly an allowance in 1 & 2 family dwelling, (to bond or not to bond, that is the question).
Either you count the outside disconnect (that happens to also be an OCPD) and call it an "Emergency Disconnect, Service Disconnect" and then bring in separate neutrals and grounding conductor (just like any "subpanel"). (230.85(E)(1))
Or you are allowed to ignore the outside disconnect (that happens to also be an OCPD) and call it an "Emergency Disconnect, Not Service Equipment" and bring in just the Neutral conductor thru into the inside panel that is the service panel and then bonding of the N/G there. (230.85(E)(3))

230.70 is general requirement that might also apply to a dwelling unit 1 & 2 Family. 230.85 amends partially the requirement of 230.70 only related to 1 & 2 Family dwellings. Where 230.85 does not reference distances of the service conductors requirement of 230.70 would stand.

This section was given to address the fire personnel issue when arriving on a fire scene, unable to proceed safely until POCO arrive to disconnect power, While still making allowances for 1 & 2 family dwellings that allows for adding an "Emergency Disconnect" without having to fully upgrade the entire system.

There trained to pull the meter anyways, Have never seen a meter cause arc flash with a 20 amp load lol.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

There trained to pull the meter anyways, Have never seen a meter cause arc flash with a 20 amp load lol.

Actually the current training is that fire fighters do not pull meters.

 

[electrofelon]

Actually the current training is that fire fighters do not pull meters.

Which I never understood. Instead of the whole emergency disconnect nonsense, can't firefighters just take a half an hour class on it? Seems pretty minimal compared to all the other hazards and things they have to deal with. The utility people I see putting in meters are not linemen and probably have minimal experience and training, I don't see what the big deal is.

 

[petersonra]

Which I never understood. Instead of the whole emergency disconnect nonsense, can't firefighters just take a half an hour class on it? Seems pretty minimal compared to all the other hazards and things they have to deal with. The utility people I see putting in meters are not linemen and probably have minimal experience and training, I don't see what the big deal is.

People make a big deal of a lot of things that should be a lot simpler. Usually it is because there is money to be made.

 

[jaggedben]

Which I never understood. Instead of the whole emergency disconnect nonsense, can't firefighters just take a half an hour class on it? Seems pretty minimal compared to all the other hazards and things they have to deal with. The utility people I see putting in meters are not linemen and probably have minimal experience and training, I don't see what the big deal is.

I could see some potential issues.

First, how is a half-hour class going to qualify a fire fighter to know if a meter is carrying the load or is a CT meter?

Second, what if there's a security ring or other type of lock that makes the meter diffucult or impossible to pull?

Third, the above potential issues would need to be dealt with under time pressure, can't be waiting around to figure it out.

 

[petersonra]

I could see some potential issues.

First, how is a half-hour class going to qualify a fire fighter to know if a meter is carrying the load or is a CT meter?

Second, what if there's a security ring or other type of lock that makes the meter diffucult or impossible to pull?

Third, the above potential issues would need to be dealt with under time pressure, can't be waiting around to figure it out.

I am all for safety. But I am not aware that this particular issue is killing firemen left and right.

 

[electrofelon]

I could see some potential issues.

First, how is a half-hour class going to qualify a fire fighter to know if a meter is carrying the load or is a CT meter?

Second, what if there's a security ring or other type of lock that makes the meter diffucult or impossible to pull?

Third, the above potential issues would need to be dealt with under time pressure, can't be waiting around to figure it out.

Fair points. Regarding CT services, for one thing they are extremely rare for one in two family dwellings. And yes I don't really see it taking more than a half hour class to explain this and how to identify.

Regarding the security ring, is it that hard to get one from the power company and keep it with the face shield and the gloves?

Again, in my area I'm not seeing what appear to be extremely trained and experienced people swapping out meters, and pulling a residential meter is extremely low risk.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Fair points. Regarding CT services, for one thing they are extremely rare for one in two family dwellings. And yes I don't really see it taking more than a half hour class to explain this and how to identify.

Regarding the security ring, is it that hard to get one from the power company and keep it with the face shield and the gloves?

Again, in my area I'm not seeing what appear to be extremely trained and experienced people swapping out meters, and pulling a residential meter is extremely low risk.

Normally it is, but under fire conditions it may not be. There may be faulted service conductors in the building and they are trying to pull enough current to open the utility transformer primary fuses....something that does not happen very often.

One of the local utilities will remotely open the contactor in their smart meters when fire dispatch requests the utility to respond. The will also send the service guy because often, we will request that the service drop be cut at the pole, but opening the meter contactor accomplishes the same thing as the emergency disconnect does.