240V outlet for stage bands

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crossman

Senior Member
Location
Southeast Texas
Well, it seems that the 3-wire/no egc receptacle installation is permitted by code. I think that sucks. With all the AFCI/GFCI/TR requirements, something like this is okay? Any new installation of a circuit/receptacle should require a seperate EGC connection/pin/prong/slot for the receptacle IMO. With no EGC slot, one of two things can happen. Either the equipment plugged into the receptacle will have no equipment ground, or the grounded conductor will be used as the EGC. Both bad.

Can anyone think of any situations where this would be otherwise?
 
H

htroberts

Member
brantmacga said:
When the OP says its "not safe", they're referring to the single grounded conductor setup and not having an additional grounding conductor.
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So, is your argument that separate ground and neutral are not required for safety?

brantmacga said:
What's your opinion on the millions of homes w/ 3-wire SEU services?
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The three-wire service is being used in the way it was designed and intended to be used, and it's fairly difficult for the user to make it less safe. The range receptacle feeding 120V stage loads is not being used in the way it was designed, and it's very easy for the user to use it in an unsafe way.
 
H

htroberts

Member
crossman said:
Well, it seems that the 3-wire/no egc receptacle installation is permitted by code.
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Art. 250.140 of the 2002 NEC "grandfathers" existing circuits, but I don't think a new non-grounding receptacle is allowed. For a new circuit, you could put in a 3-wire 250V 50A NEMA 6-50 receptacle (2 hot & ground), or a 4-wire 125/250V 50A NEMA 14-50 (2 hot, neutral, ground), but not a 3-wire 125/250V 50A 10-50 (2 hot & neutral).

What makes you think a new three-wire non-grounding receptacle is permitted?
 
C

crossman

Senior Member
Location
Southeast Texas
htroberts said:
What makes you think a new three-wire non-grounding receptacle is permitted?
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Well, the discussion in this thread first of all. And, I lloked in the code and could not find anything specifically saying it couldn't be done.

Do you have any code references that make it a violation? And, I hope you do, 'cuz I don't like it!
 
engy

engy

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
crossman said:
Well, the discussion in this thread first of all. And, I looked in the code and could not find anything specifically saying it couldn't be done.

Do you have any code references that make it a violation? And, I hope you do, 'cuz I don't like it!
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I don't like it either.
Code would allow it.
I would rather provide a ground and have the band lift it, which they will.
 
kingpb

kingpb

Senior Member
Location
SE USA as far as you can go
Occupation
Engineer, Registered
Provide what they want, per code.

Then on Friday, when the band can't plug-in, you'll get a call at around 9pm. Charge them a hefty premium "emergency call" to come out and fix it, get paid in cash, then drink beer all night on the house.

Make sure you bring a helper to be the designated driver.:)
 
H

htroberts

Member
engy said:
What makes you think a new three-wire non-grounding receptacle is not permitted?
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Well, you're right--I don't immediately see anything that says you can't install one. It looks like you do have to provide a grounding mechanism, but it doesn't have to be part of the receptacle.

I'm pretty sure that no inspector I've met would sign off on a three-wire receptacle with a neutral and no equipment grounding pin, and the original proposal to feed a portable distribution system from a receptacle with no ground pin still doesn't pass the sniff test.
 
LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
htroberts said:
I'm pretty sure that no inspector I've met would sign off on a three-wire receptacle with a neutral and no equipment grounding pin, and the original proposal to feed a portable distribution system from a receptacle with no ground pin still doesn't pass the sniff test.
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I gotta agree with this.
 
B

bcorbin

Senior Member
Whatever you do...please consider that the bar owner may own the receptacle, but he's not the one who's going to be using it. Look out for the safety of the ignorant too.

I was once a semi-pro musician, but the club I got my start in just about killed me. The electrical system in that place was so bad, you just couldn't get rid of the ground loop hum. One night, our soundman (a guy with good intentions who probably knew nothing about electricity either...) tried to fix the problem by messing with lifting the grounds to our mics at the mixing console. I couldn't tell you exactly what he did, because I knew nothing about electricity then...the details were not understood enough by me to be remembered correctly, but the humming stopped. Great, right?

30 seconds into the first song of the night, I start getting THWACKED right across my beer-moistened lips every time I would touch my bass strings while singing into the mic. It really ticked me off, but I was too stupid to realize how dangerous it was. The "arteest" in me toughed out the song before storming out to the sound booth to make him put the annoying hum back in. I only got shocked about 40 times. :mad:

Moral of the story...turn down the job rather than do a "legal" install that some dumb kid with a guitar is gonna grill his grille with.
 
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