3 12-3 supplying kitchen

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celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
domelectric said:
Location: Sarasota, Florida
Thanks Dom....I hope you don't feel I singled you out.


Now that I know this....my neighbor has a 2nd home in Sarasota.....he's looking to move their "full time" very shortly.

EDIT:
Hope we saved you/made you some money on the whole romex/conduit thing ;)
 

e57

Senior Member
domelectric said:
Well, I have searched and I cannot conclude that NM cable cannot be used in residential buildings over three stories. Hmmm. I have been practicing this for years. I will ask the local AHJ and find out what he thinks. By the way, I am in Florida and will try to put that in my profile. Thanks for the heads up.

Well friend, to the dismay of some others - don't just jump into wiring everything with romex, check local codes! While the 2002 NEC took the language of '3-stories' out of the code by that wording, it replaced it with building type restrictions. It seems to me that the '3-story rule' was an attempt to comply with building types that often change anyway at 3-stories depending on building and fire codes - many of them still do. The buiding types are not part of the NEC, but printed in an Annex just to help you figure out what they are. The bottom line - comes down to job specification, and local AHJ. Take note that you would be hard pressed to find anything considered a "High-rise" as an allowable building type. For that matter many urban areas (as the AHJ and Fire Depts discretion) may classify buildings in a manner they see fit, not to mention insurance companies. Locally I can not use NM in anything other than one and two family dwellings under four stories - and definately not in a high-rise unless it were a single family dwelling.... (Haven't seen one of those yet. I can use NM in a single family of any hieght. 1-100) And definately not in non-residential. But a few counties away - I could wire everything in x-mas tinsle if I wanted to - they have no standards or enforcement at all... (Would I? - No!)

The commentary from 334.10
A well-established means of codifying fire protection and fire safety requirements is to classify buildings by types of construction, based on materials used for the structural elements and the degree of fire resistance afforded by each element. The five fundamental construction types used by the model building codes are Type I (fire resistive), Type II (noncombustible), Type III (combination of combustible and noncombustible), Type IV (heavy timber), and Type V (wood frame). Types I and II basically require all structural elements to be noncombustible, whereas Types III, IV, and V allow some or all of the structural elements to be combustible (wood).
The selection of building construction types is regulated by the building code, based on the occupancy, height, and area of the building. The local code official or the architect for a building project can be consulted to determine the minimum allowable (permitted) construction type for the building under consideration. When a building of a selected height (in feet or stories above grade) and area is permitted to be built of combustible construction (i.e., Types III, IV, or V), the installation of nonmetallic sheathed cable is permitted. The common areas (corridors) and incidental and subordinate uses (laundry rooms, lounge rooms, etc.) that serve a multifamily dwelling occupancy are also considered part of the multifamily occupancy, thereby allowing the use of nonmetallic sheathed cable in those areas.
If a building is to be of noncombustible construction (i.e., Type I or II) by the owner's choice, even though the building code would permit combustible construction, the building is allowed to be wired with nonmetallic sheathed cable. In such an instance, nonmetallic sheathed cable may be installed in the noncombustible building because the Code would have permitted the building to be of combustible construction.
Annex E provides charts and other explanatory information to assist the user in understanding and categorizing the exact types of construction under consideration. A table to cross reference building types to the various building code types of construction is provided in Annex E also.

Personally, I think the change to further confuse the 'uses permited' was one of the dumbest moves the NEC has made. I'll admit it took me a while to find out - HOW to FIND OUT what the building type of my projects were after this change. The "3-story rule" was easy, '123 MC and EMT'. (I will admit that the process made me learn more than I previously needed, or still think I really need to know about fire ratings...)

Banning multi-wire circuits will trump that for dumb move #1. I see both as moves to dumb down the trade, and pander to the lowball artists of the world, and those who have little understanding of the benifits vs. hazards.
 
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Only sparkies can turn a conversation about running one 12-3 verses two 12-2s, to building construction types and whether NM can be used!!... This is what makes electricians the best thing around.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
domelectric said:
Only sparkies can turn a conversation about running one 12-3 verses two 12-2s, to building construction types and whether NM can be used!!... This is what makes electricians the best thing around.
Agreed! We seem to have to know more about other trades' work than any of them do ours.
 

chris kennedy

Senior Member
Location
Miami Fla.
Occupation
60 yr old tool twisting electrician
LarryFine said:
Agreed! We seem to have to know more about other trades' work than any of them do ours.

Larry, I have a float in the guest bath toilet that doesn't return to the top of the tank. Should I put in a whole new assembly (listed of course), or just try to bend the arm up?
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
You should change out the entire toilet to an air-assisted model.... 1 quart per flush.

lf-510.jpg

http://www.microphor.com/pdf/LF-510-520.pdf

..it will go nicely with the air jet tub and end all that bonding confusion.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Hey I taught a plumber how to plumb two sets of values. The owner wanted to come into the shower from one side and out the other. The water was premixed but he needed it to work like a 3 way switch. It worked perfectly.

2-Y valves-- plumb them the way you would a 3 way switch but use water pipe not wires.:wink:
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
chris kennedy said:
I went to the link and still don't know if I need to bond the toilet to the AL. window frame.

You probably should...the toilet is stainless steel....but use a copper conductor.
 

ryan_618

Senior Member
chris kennedy said:
I went to the link and still don't know if I need to bond the toilet to the AL. window frame.
You need to read Article 682 for the requirements for toilets.
682.1 Scope.
This article applies to the installation of electrical wiring for, and equipment in and adjacent to, natural or artificially made bodies of water not covered by other articles in this Code, such as but not limited to aeration ponds, fish farm ponds, storm retention basins, treatment ponds, irrigation (channels) facilities.

:D :D :D
 
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