3/4 fur strip Any Sudgestions?

[goldstar]

OK lets look at the other direction.

You are the guy paying the bills, what reason would you have to spend more money buying more material and giving up space when the electrician can put the devices in strapped wall if they just work a bit harder?

As far as it 'just being 3/4" around the room' ... in the buildings I work in that is going to add up to a lot of inches overall.

I fully understand your point of view. I don't agree with it but I do understand. Whoever is paying the bill has to pay someone to do the work unless the EC is going to bust out the block at no additional charge. Then it becomes a question of whether the payer is willing to lose 1 1/2" of space in his room. If that's meaningful then you have to do what you have to do. If we're talking about adding one receptacle this is a moot point. Obviously it isn't worth adding the extra fir strip in that case.

 

[iwire]

I fully understand your point of view. I don't agree with it but I do understand.

Don't agree with what?

That it would cost more to frame the walls with studs vs shooting strapping on a block wall that is already there?:huh:

Other than making it easier for the electrician what would be gained by spending the extra money for the additional material and labor costs? It takes the carpenters longer to frame a new wall vs shooting strapping on block.


Construction goes to the lowest bidder, that being the case the cheapest methods overall prevail and that gets us right back to strapping block walls vs framing a new wall in front of them.

 

[goldstar]

Don't agree with what?

That it would cost more to frame the walls with studs vs shooting strapping on a block wall that is already there?:huh:

How much are you charging your customer to bust out the block, strap the wall and install a metal box as opposed to nailing on a plastic JB with a mud cover.

Other than making it easier for the electrician what would be gained by spending the extra money for the additional material and labor costs? It takes the carpenters longer to frame a new wall vs shooting strapping on block.

I'd be willing to bet it wouldn't take me more than an hour to nail on an additional layer of fir strip on a 10' wall. A bundle of fir strip costs about $15.

Construction goes to the lowest bidder, that being the case the cheapest methods overall prevail and that gets us right back to strapping block walls vs framing a new wall in front of them.

I guess that's where I'm having a problem. I don't do bid work. Going to the lowest bidder takes on a new meaning when a company hires day workers off the side of the road to do the trades' jobs. (Sorry, just me venting)

 

[kwired]

Don't agree with what?

That it would cost more to frame the walls with studs vs shooting strapping on a block wall that is already there?:huh:

Other than making it easier for the electrician what would be gained by spending the extra money for the additional material and labor costs? It takes the carpenters longer to frame a new wall vs shooting strapping on block.


Construction goes to the lowest bidder, that being the case the cheapest methods overall prevail and that gets us right back to strapping block walls vs framing a new wall in front of them.

If they already put the 3/4 strips up, then it will cost to strip it a second time. If you are lucky enough to have the discussion before the wall is furred out - it will cost less to go with 1.5" strips the first time then to also pay electrician extra labor to deal with the shallow space.

Sometimes the lost square footage of floor space may matter other times it may not.

If you are adding insulation to the wall you get more R value by furring out further as well.

No single answer on which is best way to go fits all applications.

 

[iwire]

If they already put the 3/4 strips up, then it will cost to strip it a second time.

What second time?

If you are lucky enough to have the discussion before the wall is furred out - it will cost less to go with 1.5" strips the first time then to also pay electrician extra labor to deal with the shallow space.

And if that was true it would be what would be happening, again decisions are usually made on costs not the ease of one trade over another.

Sometimes the lost square footage of floor space may matter other times it may not.

Water is often wet.

If you are adding insulation to the wall you get more R value by furring out further as well.

And using 8" wall studs could give you more R as well.

But again, we work in a cost driven trade, the cheapest routes usually prevail.

No single answer on which is best way to go fits all applications.

The single answer is it is up to the person paying the bills, not the electrician with sore hands breaking blocks.

We recently completed a large apartment complex, in that one many walls were prefabbed off site and flown into place by crane. Most of these walls had one side pre-finished, often with plywood for sheer walls.

This being the case our rough work is more difficult and we have to cut in old work boxes into walls of plywood with sheet rock over them. I saw a gang box leaving for the job with a bunch of new battery saws in it

Very time consuming, raises our bid price but the person paying the bills looks at the total job cost not just the ECs costs or how much harder the electricians have to work.

 

[kwired]

What second time?



And if that was true it would be what would be happening, again decisions are usually made on costs not the ease of one trade over another.



Water is often wet.



And using 8" wall studs could give you more R as well.

But again, we work in a cost driven trade, the cheapest routes usually prevail.



The single answer is it is up to the person paying the bills, not the electrician with sore hands breaking blocks.

We recently completed a large apartment complex, in that one many walls were prefabbed off site and flown into place by crane. Most of these walls had one side pre-finished, often with plywood for sheer walls.

This being the case our rough work is more difficult and we have to cut in old work boxes into walls of plywood with sheet rock over them. I saw a gang box leaving for the job with a bunch of new battery saws in it

Very time consuming, raises our bid price but the person paying the bills looks at the total job cost not just the ECs costs or how much harder the electricians have to work.

It is more like they don't realize what other costs they might bring on when making those early design decisions.

Price of a mobile or manufactured home might look good when talking to the manufacturer - then if you set it on a basement, finish that basement, attach a garage, etc. suddenly they find they spent nearly the same money as if it were totally constructed on site. The only way they typically are "cheap" is if you set them up like a true mobile home by blocking them up, tying down, and skirting around the base.

 

[iwire]

It is more like they don't realize what other costs they might bring on when making those early design decisions.

:lol:

Another guy that thinks only they can see the big picture. You don't think engineers, designers and architects learn these things after some time doing it? You are the only one that can see the potential issue?


We are clearly taking about different kinds of projects. Modern large projects are scrutinized for this type of thing. We often have to include the cost of 'BIM' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_information_modeling

This involves having representatives from each trade work together to build the building on a computer before the work is actually done.

Is it perfect? Heck no, but it often does work. We have a prefab shop that prebends and cuts conduits based on the BIM and from all reports it seems to be going well.

Price of a mobile or manufactured home might look good when talking to the manufacturer - then if you set it on a basement, finish that basement, attach a garage, etc. suddenly they find they spent nearly the same money as if it were totally constructed on site. The only way they typically are "cheap" is if you set them up like a true mobile home by blocking them up, tying down, and skirting around the base.

The price of the mobile or manufactured home is going to be cheaper than the stick built home of the same conditions.

Compare apples to apples.

 

[goldstar]

I have an existing building that is block with 3/4 fur strip .

Let's remember that this was the OP's opening statement. Iwire's solution may very well be the right one. Bear in mind, we are not on the job and don't know all the conditions. However, I offered a second solution (not necessarily trying to get out of additional work) to the fir stripped wall by adding a second fir strip to the original so as to pad out the wall to accommodate both the JB and insulation (if it's an outside wall). If you bid the job by figuring to bust out block and were awarded the job - more power to you.

I've seen basements where HO's originally installed fir strip hoping to gain that 1 1/2" of space around the room. They busted out the block on the outside wall and now have to deal with excessive moisture and mold. In that case - not the right decision IMHO.

 

[kwired]

:lol:

Another guy that thinks only they can see the big picture. You don't think engineers, designers and architects learn these things after some time doing it? You are the only one that can see the potential issue?


We are clearly taking about different kinds of projects. Modern large projects are scrutinized for this type of thing. We often have to include the cost of 'BIM' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_information_modeling

This involves having representatives from each trade work together to build the building on a computer before the work is actually done.

Is it perfect? Heck no, but it often does work. We have a prefab shop that prebends and cuts conduits based on the BIM and from all reports it seems to be going well.



The price of the mobile or manufactured home is going to be cheaper than the stick built home of the same conditions.

Compare apples to apples.

If the project has been engineered - someone has already considered such things and decided the 3/4 furring strips made the most sense. EC should have had that information presented to them when they bid. If they missed it, they are going to have to eat any cost they did not prepare for.

When I run into this the most is when the handyman carpenter or even the HO themselves already furred out the walls in some residential basement. If it is one wall in the room and it is less then 12 feet long - we might just put an outlet near the corners on adjacent walls unless they absolutely want or need one somewhere in that wall.

I understand the apples to apples on the mobile/manufactured home thing. I don't see that many owners of these homes understanding it and getting suckered by the sales people at the place they bought their home from.

 

[Jerseydaze]

Just curious, do you nail the NM cable to the side of the fir strip ? How do you hold the JB in place ? Metal or plastic ?

3m makes fur strip stackers .Raco makes a 1" deep 2 gang box that will take a single gang mud ring but I'm looking for a better solution

 

[peter d]

:lol:

Another guy that thinks only they can see the big picture. You don't think engineers, designers and architects learn these things after some time doing it? You are the only one that can see the potential issue?


We are clearly taking about different kinds of projects. Modern large projects are scrutinized for this type of thing. We often have to include the cost of 'BIM' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_information_modeling

This involves having representatives from each trade work together to build the building on a computer before the work is actually done.

Is it perfect? Heck no, but it often does work. We have a prefab shop that prebends and cuts conduits based on the BIM and from all reports it seems to be going well.



The price of the mobile or manufactured home is going to be cheaper than the stick built home of the same conditions.

Compare apples to apples.

*Drops mic, walks off stage.

 

[goldstar]

3m makes fur strip stackers.

I gave you that link in post # 7

Raco makes a 1" deep 2 gang box that will take a single gang mud ring

How are you going to use that on a 3/4" fir strip ?

but I'm looking for a better solution.

We've been trying to give you some suggestions if you read back through the other posts. We don't know all the conditions of your project. Can you provide more info ?

 

[kwired]

Several years ago I believe the minimum depth for boxes was much simpler - something like 1 inch or 1-1/8 inches internal depth was the only requirement for boxes containing devices. It is more complex today, see 314.24.

On top of that minimum depth though there is still volume requirements depending on size and number of conductors and whether or not there is devices within the box.

 

[hbiss]

No, that will not fly, not in the places we do. They are not going to loose space permanently just to make the electricians life easier.

Well then put it in a way they can understand because I really think they just don't care. Even if you blow holes for the boxes how do you comply with the 1-1/4" rule? Those Caddy CJ-6's will maintain distance from the furring strip horizontally but the 1-1/4" is DEPTH. So I think you could make a case for it not being NEC compliant because there is no economical way to meet the 1-1/4" rule. That would require the contractor to build the furring out or fail the inspection.

Of course you could always give them the option of running the wiring in EMT on the surface of the sheetrock after it's finished. :happyyes:

-Hal

 

[peter d]

I guess nobody here has seen how they wire houses in Florida. All the exterior walls are block with 3/4" furring strips. They make holes in the block as needed, and use the furring strip stackers.

 

[iwire]

Even if you blow holes for the boxes how do you comply with the 1-1/4" rule? Those Caddy CJ-6's will maintain distance from the furring strip horizontally but the 1-1/4" is DEPTH.

No, there is no depth requirement for cables running parallel to framing members.

If passing perpendicularly you may need a metal plate for protection.

 

[hbiss]

No, there is no depth requirement for cables running parallel to framing members.

Cables must be stapled at least 1-1/4" in from either edge of the stud unless the framing member is against a masonry wall or similar where there is no possibility of any fastener coming from that direction. Then the backset is only from the sheetrock side. That's why they make stackers and those Caddy CJ6s no? The CJ6 may seem flimsy but it is supposed to be that way. It provides the 1-1/4" backset and flexes so the cable can move to help prevent a nail or screw from penetrating it.

Now, if you are talking about wiring that is fished I agree.

-Hal

 

[iwire]

Cables must be stapled at least 1-1/4" in from either edge of the stud unless the framing member is against a masonry wall or similar where there is no possibility of any fastener coming from that direction. Then the backset is only from the sheetrock side. That's why they make stackers and those Caddy CJ6s no? The CJ6 may seem flimsy but it is supposed to be that way. It provides the 1-1/4" backset and flexes so the cable can move to help prevent a nail or screw from penetrating it.

Now, if you are talking about wiring that is fished I agree.

-Hal

I disagree, please post the code section to support that.

The cables can touch the drywall as long as they are 1.25" away from the edge of the framing member

 

[ActionDave]

Cables must be stapled at least 1-1/4" in from either edge of the stud unless the framing member is against a masonry wall or similar where there is no possibility of any fastener coming from that direction. Then the backset is only from the sheetrock side. That's why they make stackers and those Caddy CJ6s no?

No. Code only requires the cable be an inch and a quarter away from the edge of the framing member. Front to back is one way to get there, but so is sideways.

 

[electroman7885]

Lots of discussion for such a simple everyday remodel box mount. All suggestions given are great and normal practice. I find things get done much faster if I just do it and stop talking about it. But that's just me.

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