3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?

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golfrick1

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I just inspected a house that is 2 wire with all 3 hole receptacles. What the person had done was put a jumper on the ground to the neutral to simulate a ground for the $10 tester. The tester displayed properly. But inspecting the service panel I noticed only a few ground wires where some new GFCI receptacles were added.

What are the safety issues with this type of setup?

Thanks,

Rick
 
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?

This question comes up from time to time. I am always happy to see a Home Inspector be cognizant of this problem. The short answer is that it is a real and immediate threat to life and health. :eek:

I typed up a longer answer, and saved it in a Word file, to save me the trouble of writing it again. Here it is. Forgive the length.
Why is it not safe to connect ground to neutral in a receptacle?

The third pin, the "ground pin," is connected to the external metal parts of whatever you plug into the receptacle. The other two pins (or "prongs"), the "hot" and the "neutral" as they are sometimes called, are only connected to stuff that is inside the case. But if one of them were to break and come into contact with the case, it might give a shock to whoever next touches the case.

The purpose of the ground pin is to take that shock current from the case and send it directly back to the source. This current will be high enough to cause the circuit breaker to trip. In other words, the ground pin will save the life of the person touching the energized case.

If you have only a 2-prong receptacle (no ground pin), the protection you lose is the ability of the system to trip the circuit breaker. So whatever shock a person might get from the case will not be stopped, unless they are lucky enough to be able to pull their hand away, or perhaps they might fall on the floor (thus causing their hand to be pulled away from the case).

So what happens when you connect the ground and the neutral within a receptacle? You cause the case of whatever is plugged into that receptacle to become energized. How? By virtue of the fact that there is current flowing in the neutral wire, the fact that the neutral wire is connected to the ground wire, and the fact that the ground wire is connected to the case of whatever item you have plugged in.

Every time anyone touches that case, they will receive a shock. But that shock is usually very slight ? so slight that the person might not notice. Therefore, the person might continue to operate that equipment for years, and still not know they are in danger. In other instances, the person will not be so lucky. The amount of the shock might be low one day and higher the next day. It cannot always be predicted.

An extreme danger comes into play, when a neutral wire becomes loose or is disconnected. In that case, the only path current can take from the equipment back to the source is along the ground wire. That means that the person touching the case will get a much greater shock, and this type of accident has been known to be fatal.

NOW HEAR THIS: If you plug something into an outlet that has the neutral and ground tied together, and if that something has metal parts on the outside, then as soon as you touch the thing there is going to be some current flowing through your heart. Might not be much, but it will happen. Every time. No exceptions.

Would you be happy about that?
 
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?

Ya mean this.
groundhack.JPG
 
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?

so aside from rewiring the house.. is the only answer left to replace the receptacles with 2 prong?
 
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?

so aside from rewiring the house.. is the only answer left to replace the receptacles with 2 prong?
Not necessarily:


250.130 Equipment Grounding Conductor Connections
(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates
(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure
(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure
OR
(D) Replacements Replacement of receptacles shall comply with 406.3(D)(1), (D)(2), and (D)(3) as applicable.
 
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?

Augie,

Thanks for the reply... but I'm not a code reading expert.... what did that tell me?
 
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?

Basically the jumper needs to removed. The 3 wire recptacle can stay if its gfi protected or replaced with a gfi. You can fish in ground wires to each location and attach them per the above post........or the easy way put in a two wire.

Note-- If you are using the IRC you may want to look at it. Here in MI the rules are different as we use the MRC (IRC with MI amendments)
 
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?

Originally posted by golfrick1:... but I'm not a code reading expert.... what did that tell me?
From your perspective as a Home Inspector, if you see this again, you should definitely write it up as a safety hazard. But there are several ways the homeowner (seller or buyer) can get this fixed. One way is to replace the 3-prong receptacles with 2-prong receptacles. Another is to do some rewiring that makes a ground wire available. Another is to leave the 3-prong receptacle in place (but with that illegal jumper wire removed), and attach a label that warns the user that there is no equipment ground. Any of these tasks should be done by an electrician.

But it also means that if you see a 2-prong receptacle, it is not necessarily a code violation, and it is not necessarily a safety hazard. I think you should, at the very least, write it up as an item that should be investigated by an electrician.
 
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?

Rick In the last part of his post referenced 406.3(D)
406.3(D) allows 3 ways to replace a receptacle that there is no grounding means available.
1. Install another two prong receptacle
2. Install a GFCI type receptacle
3. Install a GFCI breaker to protect the whole branch circuit.
The latter two allow 3-prong receptacles to be used from the load side of the GFCI, as long as they are marked "GFCI PROTECTED" and "NO EQUIPMENT GROUND"


406.3(D)(3) Nongrounding-Type Receptacles. Where grounding means does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with (a), (b), or (c).
(a) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with another nongrounding-type receptacle(s).
(b) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked ?No Equipment Ground.? An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.
(c) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be marked ?GFCI Protected? and ?No Equipment Ground.? An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles.
Also make sure that when inspecting older homes that have BX type wiring method, The BX is not used as an equipment ground. This does not include the newer type of BX that has the flat grounding conductor run inside of it, this is legal for grounding, but the older stuff that will only have the current carrying conductors with no extra grounding conductor in it and is not allowed to be used as a ground. Very dangerous as if a ground fault was to occur the casing can heat up like a heating element and cause a fire. Many have changed out 2-prong receptacles with this type of BX and I find it all the time in older houses. A very common over look.
 
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?

Thanks to all of you. I appreciate the information and will feel comfortable with my recommendations.

Great first question and answers for my first question on the board !!!!!


Rick
 
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?

Originally posted by jbwhite:
Ya mean this.
:confused:
edited to correct spelling "EGC"

[ December 19, 2005, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: electricman2 ]
 
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?

i dont ask why, unless that person is there to answer. this guy was long gone when i got there.
 
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?

Whats sad is he did not need that jumper,just a sticker that came with it (no equipment ground).But one thing we might bring up is that it is questionable if a HI is allowed to pull a receptacle out to inspect. :confused:
 
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?

With the picture above and how that GFI is wired, wouldn't it still trip if current leaked through the ground prong to the neutral? NOT that it's okay to wire it that way.
 
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?

i would say yes, if the hot and ground were to short in the appliance the gfci would trip. until then as has been pointed out. THIS IS COMPLETELY UNSAFE. ANY METAL SURFACE OF THE APPLIANCE WOULD BE A CURRENT CARRYING CONDUCTOR.

sowwy for the caps.
 
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?

Seems to me that this practice is safe as long as the neutral stays intact. If the neutral opens, then the loads connect the open neutral and anything connected to the EGC prong to the line voltage.

This is the real danger.
 
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?

rattus, read charlies post on page 1. he explained it well...
 
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?

JB,
I did read the post, and I maintain that there is little danger unless the neutral is open or highly resistive. Normally there would be at most a volt or so on the neutral--not enough to notice.

Now if we have a fault to neutral, then we might see half the line voltage on the neutral until the breaker opens; you would see even more with a fault to an EGC because the wire is usually smaller than the neutral. Even worse would be an open neutral which would carry the full line voltage.

I am in no way saying this is a safe practice, I am just pointing out that schematically there is no difference in doing it right and faking it.

The danger is compounded by the fact that this practice is usually seen in older houses where the possiblity of a high resistance neutral or an open neutral is increased.

Will provide sketches if you wish.
 
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