paul
Senior Member
- Location
- Snohomish, WA
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?
My dryer and range are wired in a VERY similar fashion.
My dryer and range are wired in a VERY similar fashion.
3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?
- Thread starter golfrick1
- Start date
- Status
B
bthielen
Guest
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?
I don't know what the rules are regarding HIs removing a receptacle cover to inspect it but I would sure be glad to have Rick inspecting my home. He sounds like a very conscientious individual that takes his job seriously.
Keep up the good work!
Bob
I don't know what the rules are regarding HIs removing a receptacle cover to inspect it but I would sure be glad to have Rick inspecting my home. He sounds like a very conscientious individual that takes his job seriously.
Keep up the good work!
Bob
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?
No need, on my part. I agree with you. I think my explanation says the same thing. I intentionally chose my wording in a way that would put at least a small amount of fear in the mind of a DIY who wants to connect N-G in a receptacle. In fact, the DIY was my intended audience for that particular explanation.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?
Golfrick1: Can you address this for us? In whatever training you had to undergo to get your job as a Home Inspector, what were you taught with regard to opening electrical equipment?</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Were you taught how to open safely receptacle or switch outlets, and what to look for when it was open?</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Were you taught it's OK to do so?</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Were you taught how to safely remove the cover to a main service panel, and what to look for when it was open?</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Were you taught it's OK to do so?</font>
B
bthielen
Guest
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?
How about it all you home inspectors out there? Are you required to be licensed and does your licensing include some training with regard to electrical safety?
If not, one has to wonder how an inspector can do a thorough job without removing some covers.
Bob
How about it all you home inspectors out there? Are you required to be licensed and does your licensing include some training with regard to electrical safety?
If not, one has to wonder how an inspector can do a thorough job without removing some covers.
Bob
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?
There may be a reason why the new code requires four wire dryers and stoves.
I stand by my statement: electricity does not take the shortest path, it takes every availible path. and i add do you want to be one of them.
I have been railed by this situation, on 120 v and 277 v systems.
There may be a reason why the new code requires four wire dryers and stoves.
I stand by my statement: electricity does not take the shortest path, it takes every availible path. and i add do you want to be one of them.
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?
jb,
Agreed, Don't need to know the code; the need for a separate EGC is obvious--especially after you have skinned your knuckles while jerking your hand away from the unplesantness.
It takes just one mishap to make one a believer--or dead!
jb,
Agreed, Don't need to know the code; the need for a separate EGC is obvious--especially after you have skinned your knuckles while jerking your hand away from the unplesantness.
It takes just one mishap to make one a believer--or dead!
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?
jb, I don't think anyone is calling this a minor problem. I am simply saying that as long as the neutral presents a low-R path to ground, there is little danger.
But, if the neutral opens, then we have a real danger--more dangerous than an open EGC would be. And, we all know that neutrals become open from time to time. As I have already said, "An accident waiting to happen".
jb, I don't think anyone is calling this a minor problem. I am simply saying that as long as the neutral presents a low-R path to ground, there is little danger.
But, if the neutral opens, then we have a real danger--more dangerous than an open EGC would be. And, we all know that neutrals become open from time to time. As I have already said, "An accident waiting to happen".
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?
I see three major danger's in bonding the neutral to a receptacle grounding terminal and this is not about what the code Say's.
1. as was already said, lost neutral will liven up all that is using it as EGC.
2. In older homes it might not be clear which wire is the neutral with the old cloth insulated wire, and the hot gets connected to the grounding terminal instead. This can happen anywhere in the circuit. and without a known reference ground you will never know you just heated up the grounding.
3. Any fault that happens on the circuit will cause a voltage drop, If the circuit run is long the voltage drop will be greater. Now add in that the available fault current can be very high and you have a recipe to kill.
Even if we have a circuit with a 2% voltage drop @ the rating of the circuit. the fault current can be 10 times that. Maybe only for a few cycles but how many cycles does it need to kill someone?
I see three major danger's in bonding the neutral to a receptacle grounding terminal and this is not about what the code Say's.
1. as was already said, lost neutral will liven up all that is using it as EGC.
2. In older homes it might not be clear which wire is the neutral with the old cloth insulated wire, and the hot gets connected to the grounding terminal instead. This can happen anywhere in the circuit. and without a known reference ground you will never know you just heated up the grounding.
3. Any fault that happens on the circuit will cause a voltage drop, If the circuit run is long the voltage drop will be greater. Now add in that the available fault current can be very high and you have a recipe to kill.
Even if we have a circuit with a 2% voltage drop @ the rating of the circuit. the fault current can be 10 times that. Maybe only for a few cycles but how many cycles does it need to kill someone?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?
I agree with Ratus.
I agree it is a wrong and should not be done but I do not see it as the imminent hazard you do.
I agree with Ratus.
Could you explain please, up until very recently every electric dryer and range was grounded in this way and I have not heard of a trail of victims from this practice.
I agree it is a wrong and should not be done but I do not see it as the imminent hazard you do.
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?
i was not railed by a circuit where the ground and neutral were on one home run back to the panel.
they were on circuits where several recs were in the same conduit going home.
i happened to contact the ground when going up to trouble shooot.
i was not railed by a circuit where the ground and neutral were on one home run back to the panel.
they were on circuits where several recs were in the same conduit going home.
i happened to contact the ground when going up to trouble shooot.
mikeames
Senior Member
- Location
- Gaithersburg MD
- Occupation
- Teacher - Master Electrician - 2023 NEC
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?
I agree with Rattus and Charlie.
1. Charlies post is correct for a simple explanination like he stated.
2. Rattus I believe is more correct in the sence that its bonded in the panel. Its technically just as safe as long as the neutral is intact. If it was notjust as safe than one could argue you would recieve a shock just by touching the kitchen sink, the exterior of the panel or anything else grounded to the service. Technically speaking you do as Charlie stated. Thats how "Touch lights" work.
3. The only negative would be paralled return paths to the panel if the ground and neutral were bonded at the outlet.
4. Obviously its not correct nor accepted.
I agree with Rattus and Charlie.
1. Charlies post is correct for a simple explanination like he stated.
2. Rattus I believe is more correct in the sence that its bonded in the panel. Its technically just as safe as long as the neutral is intact. If it was notjust as safe than one could argue you would recieve a shock just by touching the kitchen sink, the exterior of the panel or anything else grounded to the service. Technically speaking you do as Charlie stated. Thats how "Touch lights" work.
3. The only negative would be paralled return paths to the panel if the ground and neutral were bonded at the outlet.
4. Obviously its not correct nor accepted.
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?
JB,
I cannot see how a neutral or EGC in good condition could energize a piece of conduit.
Sounds like there was a short from line to conduit--quite possible. Or is it possible that your ladder was somehow energized like the baptismal pool with the faulty heater?
JB,
I cannot see how a neutral or EGC in good condition could energize a piece of conduit.
Sounds like there was a short from line to conduit--quite possible. Or is it possible that your ladder was somehow energized like the baptismal pool with the faulty heater?
Re: 3 prongs configured with ground in 2 wire system?
electricity does not follow the easiest path back to the source or ground... it shares every available source, even if one of those sources happens to be YOU>
if you read the thread the short was intentionaly placed between the neutral and ground at the rec. to fool a inspectors tester.
electricity does not follow the easiest path back to the source or ground... it shares every available source, even if one of those sources happens to be YOU>
- Status