3 way current carrying conductor

Status
Not open for further replies.
What I see here is 1 14-2 using black and white as travelers , at the switchleg end a random neutral tied to the switchleg neutral going to the light.
I find out where as soon as I put in a gfci on the 2 wire plug and it trips when that light comes on. If it's load side.

Sent from my LGLS620 using Tapatalk
 
electricalist said:
What I see here is 1 14-2 using black and white as travelers , at the switchleg end a random neutral tied to the switchleg neutral going to the light.
I find out where as soon as I put in a gfci on the 2 wire plug and it trips when that light comes on. If it's load side.

Sent from my LGLS620 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

But, if you've got actual travelers, and the switched leg on the common terminal of the end threeway, that's not a California. The
California is distinguished by a conductor that connects the commons of both threeways to each other, and has no other connections. Look at Fig. 5 in this thread.
 
Looks like the same amount of wire as a 3 way wired with,a hot end to travelers to a switch leg.
Maybe it should have been call a green 3 way cause the new guy wired it that way.

Sent from my LGLS620 using Tapatalk
 
electricalist said:
Looks like the same amount of wire as a 3 way wired with,a hot end to travelers to a switch leg.
Maybe it should have been call a green 3 way cause the new guy wired it that way.
Click to expand...
:D
Ahh, The creativity of the uninformed.

TwoWireTravellingBus3Way.jpg


The California could be wired with 2-wire like in my post-it sketch - even with a random neutral, but, somehow, I don't think your green guy had it in 'em.
 
So if I have 2 3 ways wired correctly,, 1 hot- neutral on one end 2 sets of travelers and 2 neutrals going to the other side and a2switch leg s and neutrals there. Are the neutrals in parallel?

Sent from my LGLS620 using Tapatalk
 
electricalist said:
So if I have 2 3 ways wired correctly,, 1 hot- neutral on one end 2 sets of travelers and 2 neutrals going to the other side and a2switch leg s and neutrals there. Are the neutrals in parallel?
Click to expand...

I'm sorry. Poor penmanship. My H and N look confusingly similar. The N (eutral) goes up and over. The H (ot) goes straight across. When both switches are in the "down" position, as drawn in my postit, the Hot and Common to Common will be in parallel.
 
The first image (figure 6) has a traveler just between the load and no where else which would switch the load.

attachment.php


This one (figure 5) the traveler goes on past the 1st 3-way and appears to be also a hot since the direction says "to panel". If that's the case the load would be on all the time as the wire goes to the load and back toward the panel. Unless there is another load not being shown.

Figure 6 looks legal to me as it doesn't meet the definition of a parallel circuit because the two end points are not tied together. They are "switched" to a common point but not directly tied to one such as you would have with double lugs.

fig5.gif
 
Little Bill said:
. . . the two end points are not tied together. They are "switched" to a common point but not directly tied to one such as you would have with double lugs.
Click to expand...

But, the NEC, in 310.10(H) says: "electrically joined at both ends". Not "directly".
 
Little Bill said:
The first image (figure 6) has a traveler just between the load and no where else which would switch the load.

attachment.php


This one (figure 5) the traveler goes on past the 1st 3-way and appears to be also a hot since the direction says "to panel". If that's the case the load would be on all the time as the wire goes to the load and back toward the panel. Unless there is another load not being shown.

Figure 6 looks legal to me as it doesn't meet the definition of a parallel circuit because the two end points are not tied together. They are "switched" to a common point but not directly tied to one such as you would have with double lugs.

fig5.gif
Click to expand...
Fig 5 is same thing as fig 6, other then it doesn't have the first load closer to the source end. If you capped that wire that would have gone to that first load, you still have a set of switches that switches the on/off state of the load no matter which location you operate a switch from. Fig 5 also uses same amount of copper as the more conventional method of connecting such a circuit. But if you have the additional load that fig 6 has, you would need an additional return conductor from the last three way to come back to the first load with, if using the more conventional three way wiring method most of us are used to.

I see nothing wrong with either diagram from a NEC perspective, though it can make you have only two conductors carrying current in one switch configuration and all four carrying current in another - but when all four none are parallel to one another in the sense of current can divide and come back together after passing through a parallel path it is just a series path that zig zags through the same location more then one time. Can't add more switch locations though, but with the conventional three way method most of us are used to you can add as many 4 way switches as you want in between the two three way switches.
 
So Kwired if you have 2 conventional 3 ways one end is hot end sending travelers with neutrals to the other 2 3 ways that are the s with leg end. Do you make up all neutrals on the switched side or keep them seperated to their respective lights. ?

Sent from my LGLS620 using Tapatalk
 
electricalist said:
So Kwired if you have 2 conventional 3 ways one end is hot end sending travelers with neutrals to the other 2 3 ways that are the s with leg end. Do you make up all neutrals on the switched side or keep them seperated to their respective lights. ?

Sent from my LGLS620 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


Sorry, I don't know I understand the question, conventional 3 way circuit only has two three way switches, but can have unlimited number of 4 ways inserted in the "traveler" conductors. Neutral conductor just passes through switch boxes and is not attached to switch and you only have one neutral conductor at the end when you get to the load.

More recent requirements to have a grounded conductor at many switch locations, makes running cables more complex sometimes if you want to ensure you have a neutral at every switch box, but you always will have a neutral in every box if wired like the examples shown so far where supply power hits one end - passes through every switch along the way and ends up at the load on the far end. Though it may not work so well to use dimmers, timers or occupancy sensor switches that require a neutral on some of those methods where the grounded and ungrounded are swapped in some manner in the control scheme.
 
kwired said:
I see nothing wrong with either diagram from a NEC perspective, . . .
Click to expand...

As these two figures are drawn (only with switched load) you are technically correct. However, my point is that the most common use of this configuration includes additional loads on the downstream end past the last threeway that is supplied NOT by the switched leg, but by the always hot branch circuit conductor. When the two switches, as shown in the two figures in your post, have their Commons connected to the "always hot traveler" a parallel path for the unswitched load is established "electrically".


kwired said:
Can't add more switch locations though, but with the conventional three way method most of us are used to you can add as many 4 way switches as you want in between the two three way switches.
Click to expand...

Consider this configuration of the California Threeway that can have any number of switches:

Cal4Way_web_zpslgld5ku8.jpg
 
al hildenbrand said:
As these two figures are drawn (only with switched load) you are technically correct. However, my point is that the most common use of this configuration includes additional loads on the downstream end past the last threeway that is supplied NOT by the switched leg, but by the always hot branch circuit conductor. When the two switches, as shown in the two figures in your post, have their Commons connected to the "always hot traveler" a parallel path for the unswitched load is established "electrically".
Took a little thought, but I see what you are saying.
Click to expand...

al hildenbrand said:
Consider this configuration of the California Threeway that can have any number of switches:

Cal4Way_web_zpslgld5ku8.jpg
Click to expand...
I knew better, yes in that sort of arrangement you could have an unlimited number of 4 way switches as well, though that method does not reverse polarity to the load, but I guess one could add 4 way switches ahead of the three way's in a circuit that does reverse polarity, but you wouldn't be able to tap any other loads (that you don't want effected by the switching scheme) anywhere between the first switches on either end of the scheme.

Add: go ahead and draw something that disproves what I said:)
 
al hildenbrand said:
When the two switches, as shown in the two figures in your post, have their Commons connected to the "always hot traveler" a parallel path for the unswitched load is established "electrically".
Click to expand...
So the user isn't allowed to use that switch configuration, the electrician is still allowed to make the installation shown, being sure the switches are in a different state. :)

Cheers, Wayne
 
kwired said:
. . . that method does not reverse polarity to the load, . .
Click to expand...

A California threeway doesn't reverse the switched load polarity.

The Carter threeway reverses switched load polarity. That's what designates it, in my opinion.

The California threeway is designated by a conductor that connects the threeway common terminals without any other connection.
 
al hildenbrand said:
But, the NEC, in 310.10(H) says: "electrically joined at both ends". Not "directly".
Click to expand...

But they are NOT electrically joined at both ends. One conductor starts at the source and the other starts at a switch. That would make them "miss the boat" in two ways.
1.) not electrically joined
2.) not the same length
At least figure 6 is that way. Can't see all of figure 5, it just shows it going back towards the panel.

Also, IMO, electrically joined would mean constantly joined. With a switch they are not joined at all times. Maybe the section could be written more clearly but I think we all know what the intent was for parallel circuits.
 
wwhitney said:
So the user isn't allowed to use that switch configuration, the electrician is still allowed to make the installation shown, being sure the switches are in a different state. :)

Cheers, Wayne
Click to expand...

By that argument I could wire a customer's building, from the customer's plans showing 48 KVA of calculated load, and as long as I didn't "turn on" the load, I could give the building a 7.2 KVA service.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top