3 way switches

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Re: 3 way switches

Roger,you have been the advocate of EMF issues for some time.Maybe I don`t see any of them to be an issue.Have had call backs for arcfaults and gfci`s tripping but never had one for moniter flickering.Is it possible yes but is it actual not in my book.When it becomes an issue i`ll say so. ;)
 
Re: 3 way switches

Is there's a known post record, because if there is, and Jap doesn't know what it is, I don't think he should be told.
 
Re: 3 way switches

Allen, you're missing the point, the possible "flickering monitor" is only a sympton of the problem.

Just because we didn't see the cancer asbestos was causing obviously didn't mean it wasn't there.

You said you have this type wiring in your home and your comfortable with it, could this translate into " I don't want to open up the walls to fix it".

With this wiring method being questioned in possibly causing luekemia in children, would you want your children or grandchildren living around it if it could be avoided by sensible wiring methods?

Roger
 
Re: 3 way switches

Physis, a question about the number of receptacles comes to mind. :D

Roger
 
Re: 3 way switches

So what I think you're saying is, we should just give him this 100 post thing and that would probably be better for everybody. :D
 
Re: 3 way switches

Roger what I don't understand is if 60hz can be a problem what about radio frequancy's as they travel much greater distance's and at a higher power level. Think of how many of those who live around transmitter towers that transmit at high power (10,000 watts plus) and these can light up fluorescent lamps a mile away. I would like to see 60hz do that. And it is also an EMF wave too. I do respect Karl's research in this but I have not seen any scientific data that proves that it does cause any damage to the human body. if we use the court of law methods (without a shadow of doubt) even cigarettes have not had this proving as all the effects they say cigarettes cause has been seen in people who have never been around smoking.
And if we use the time line going back to when electricity wasn't in use we don't see an increase in any particular illness from then to today that could only be attributed to electricity use.
But people who live around industrial areas that emit high levels of toxins do have a higher rate of certain illness. H'mmmm

Maybe these are the people that should be checked out?
 
Re: 3 way switches

Wayne, I know what you are saying, and I don't personaly have proof one way or another.

What I do know is that "stray currents" affect more than people as proven by the Milk industry.

I remember in my teens when I rode horses, they would balk at crossing an underground MV line on the farm.

So I will humbly ask again,
With this wiring method being questioned in possibly causing luekemia in children, would you want your
children or grandchildren living around it if it could be avoided by sensible wiring methods?

Roger
 
Re: 3 way switches

Wayne, I have a lot of problems with the size of the pile of complaints verses the size of the pile of evidence. In my illinformed opinion I think statisticly you'ld be hard pressed to find anything of value to demonstrate a real causality from EMF. But my opinion is illinformed.

When I was studying electrical engineering I learned that human flesh absorbs electromagnetic energy most efficiently at "around" 1000 megacycles. Am I wrong, or is the most popular telephone frequency in the last ten years 900 megacycles? You stick this thing directly against your scull? Is this an experiment? :confused:

I agree with you, there seem to be bigger fish to fry.
 
Re: 3 way switches

By Roger: I remember in my teens when I rode horses, they would balk at crossing an underground MV line on the farm.
Click to expand...
:D ;)

And I do agree that maybe take the safe side until we get more info, But when does it stop? and upon who's statement do we go on when we here that something might be harming us. Look at what they said about butter, sugar, and salt and a few others and now how they are saying the substitutes are more harmful and even stated that butter is not that harmful to us.

[ November 11, 2004, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
 
Re: 3 way switches

Wayne,
if 60hz can be a problem what about radio frequency's
Click to expand...
In 1989 the U.S. Congress Office of Technology Assessment released Biological Effects of Power Frequency Electric & Magnetic Fields -- Background Paper, OTA-BP-E-53.
3.7. General Observations on Cell Level Experiments


Despite many negative results, a significant number of cell level experiments have shown positive effects from exposure to ELF fields. These results do not yet indicate any clear adverse impacts at the level of the whole animal. They do clearly demonstrate that: </font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">the cell membrane is one site of action of the field; and, therefore, processes governed by the cell membrane may be candidates for disruption by field exposure, the immune response and cell - cell communication being two such processes;</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">the fields do not appear to act directly on the DNA structure; but may alter cellular processes by interfering with the transcription by RNA, a process in the chain of command from DNA to protein production;</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">the effects may show a complex dependence on the intensity and frequency of the field and the time pattern of exposure to the field; further, the effects of fields may depend on the direction of the applied field in relation to the earth's magnetic field or, upon whether the field is a simple alternating field or a pulsed field. (i.e., a field turned on rapidly for brief periods)</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Click to expand...
 
Re: 3 way switches

positive effects from exposure to ELF
Click to expand...
Well it is the Christmas season. :)

Al, I think this is simply way too easy to test. So what's the hold up? Stick a field to it already and measure the results. DNA and RNA behave chemically and although the chemical action involves electrons I don't think magnetic fields have anywhere near the effect it seems some hope for on the molecular behavior.

Maybe my perspective is simplistic?
 
Re: 3 way switches

And Roger, I also agree it's really no skin off our backs to keep a neutral with it. :cool:
 
Re: 3 way switches

Sam, we don't need to keep a neutral with it, just route the wiring as switch loops, i.e. coming and going.

Roger
 
Re: 3 way switches

First of all, what are doing still up on your side of the country? And secondly, wouldn't coming and going have a neutral?
 
Re: 3 way switches

Oh no, not again. If there's no neutral with the hot then it's an (I'm inventing a new term) EMF broadcaster. (Not that there's anything wrong with that).
 
Re: 3 way switches

Never mind I get it.

Edit:It's getting late here too. I'll just call one an "honerary neutral".

[ November 12, 2004, 02:03 AM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
Re: 3 way switches

Wayne,

I'm following up on my post from last night. I ran out of steam, turned in, and am now completing my thought.

I've been reading and thinking on the subject of EMF since the late eighties, when my brother asked me to explain the currents that were in the pole mounted 3? transformer bank in the backyard of the little office building he worked at. He was asking from the perspective of the alternative health care community. I've been paying attention since.

Your question about higher frequencies is part of the whole question. Published and peer reviewed hard science studies document biological effects of EMF across the frequency spectrum.

One of the more interesting findings, when comparing the studies was that there is a window of biological effect that is around Extremely Low Frequency, ELF, EMF that works out to be what someone in a dwelling will experience for wiring methods that aren't inherently self cancelling.

This is actually quite surprising, as the common idea of something being bad for the body is that if some is bad, more is worse.

The studies of ELF EMF have shown this not to be the case in a surprising number of ways.

That is, for ELF, very low EMF levels seem to have little effect, and high to very high EMF also has little effect.

What the biological effects to the whole being means is debated. Some of it simply is beyond current science.

To me, the alarming fact is that the window of biological effect of ELF EMF centers on 60 Hz, at voltage stress and magnetic field density commonly found with unbalanced wiring methods that have been and still are used in the common single family dwelling.
 
Re: 3 way switches

Oops, I posted this at the end of page 6. What a thread!

Wayne, you say certain diseases have not increased since use of electricity. What studies have you read? Actually, a study showed that leukemia has increased with the spread of electrification in this country, following the urban electrification first, and then following rural electrification.

This forum cannot settle the question of the biological effects of 60 Hz (and harmonics) fields, since most posts cite general opinion rather than cite studies. But what we can do is say, why not wire 3-ways the way they are supposed to be wired. And how about holding off on the excuses of convenience or economy. It's always cheaper to do a sloppy job. Is that how we live?

Karl
 
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