30 amp water heater (re-identifying white wire) just venting

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tom baker said:
Reidentification of an white wire in a cable assembly for a 240 v circuit was a code requirement when I started in the trade back in 78. There is a good reason for the reidentification requirment.
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IIRC one of our Electrical inspector at the time said something about "idiots" working on stuff they shouldn't, but he did look for it and would remind you.
 
ptonsparky said:
IIRC one of our Electrical inspector at the time said something about "idiots" working on stuff they shouldn't, but he did look for it and would remind you.
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That is really the only reason I have ever heard myself. Problem is most "idiots" I have seen working on it, really wouldn't know the difference either way whether it is marked or not. Same idiots will try to connect both hot and neutral to a single pole switch and then wonder why it throws the breaker when they turn the switch on:slaphead::slaphead::slaphead:


Now maybe if we mark that neutral with some colored tape.... maybe it won't throw the breaker anymore.
 
Another interesting point is where an electrician wires a circuit with voltage drop and/or de-rating which ends up terminating a #12 wire on a circuit sized for 15a. Then someone else comes along and sees the 15at breaker with #12 terminated on it and then assumes that it should have a 20at breaker and changes the breaker to 20at without confirming that the 15at breaker was there for a reason.
 
tom baker said:
Reidentification of an white wire in a cable assembly for a 240 v circuit was a code requirement when I started in the trade back in 78. There is a good reason for the reidentification requirment.
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I'm sure it was Tom and to boot I think it is a good idea. I just never knew it was a Code requirement. Just one of those little facts that didn't get logged into my brain's data base.:cool: I can understand the re-marking of # 14's and # 12's but I'm curious to know what the good reason is for re-identification of white # 10's and above though.
 
Here is a quote from Mike Holt
"Code is Code
We don't like the rules we don't agree with
They are OK for someone else
But not if they cost us time and money"
 
goldstar said:
I can understand the re-marking of # 14's and # 12's but I'm curious to know what the good reason is for re-identification of white # 10's and above though.
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Making the language of the code simpler, with fewer qualifications and exceptions? There seem to be plenty of those already.
 
goldstar said:
That's not going to happen True, but for 15 and 20 amp circuits. This is a 30 amp circuit and # 10 wire.A serious code violation ?? Are you for real ? First of all, anyone removing a panel cover or a disconnect cover while it is energized better know what they are doing. If you're working live on the water heater end and don't realize it's a 240v unit you're in a lot more trouble than you think. And, if you're working in a breaker panel and see a # 10 white wire terminated on a 2-P, 30 amp breaker do you take it off the breaker and move it over to the ground bar just because it's a white wire ?

Look, I've already admitted I was wrong by not re-identifying the white wire but you have to think about the logic in this situation. Who am I marking the white wire for ? The homeowner ? If it's another EC isn't he going to realize that the # 10 white wire on the 2-p, 30 amp breaker is an ungrounded conductor ?
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Thanks. I found your reply to be quite amusing. It is obvious that you have things covered and am now questioning you objective with you series of posts. It was you that made the error which thankfully you have recognized and sense admitted but should the inspector be more concerned of your work in the future and for others that trust have to trust your work.
I apologized if I stepped on you toes and thanks for venting.
 
goldstar said:
I can understand the re-marking of # 14's and # 12's but I'm curious to know what the good reason is for re-identification of white # 10's and above though.
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I think i can give a couple of good reasons.

1) This rule applies at all accessible locations. I don't know about you but if I look into a junction box I can't automatically tell a white wire is being used as a hot as we normally can tell a white on a breaker is a hot.

2) This rule applies at all occupancies not just dwelling units. It is not that odd to have 120 volt circuits at 30, 40 or even 50 amps. So just because you see a white 8 AWG does not mean it is a hot.
 
templdl said:
Thanks. I found your reply to be quite amusing. It is obvious that you have things covered and am now questioning you objective with you series of posts. It was you that made the error which thankfully you have recognized and sense admitted but should the inspector be more concerned of your work in the future and for others that trust have to trust your work.
I apologized if I stepped on you toes and thanks for venting.
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Don't worry about stepping on my toes. I get wire brushed here on a regular basis. There are times when I'm right but many times when I'm wrong and irrespective of how many time's I've been wrong I've always been treated with dignity and respect. I don't mind being corrected by those who know more than me.:cool:
 
iwire said:
I think i can give a couple of good reasons.

1) This rule applies at all accessible locations. I don't know about you but if I look into a junction box I can't automatically tell a white wire is being used as a hot as we normally can tell a white on a breaker is a hot.

2) This rule applies at all occupancies not just dwelling units. It is not that odd to have 120 volt circuits at 30, 40 or even 50 amps. So just because you see a white 8 AWG does not mean it is a hot.
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I often don't think "out of the box" and I was locked in my residential wiring mode. I'm sure we've all experienced unmarked cable assemblies more than once in our lifetimes. Aside from what the Code requires, if I'm in a residence and I open a breaker panel, or junction box that contains # 10's or larger I just automatically think that it is, in all likelihood, a 240 volt circuit, even though (rarely as it may seem) it may not be the case. Commercial and industrial scenarios present a totally different set of logical thinking, IMHO.
 
tom baker said:
Here is a quote from Mike Holt
"Code is Code
We don't like the rules we don't agree with
They are OK for someone else
But not if they cost us time and money"
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That's a good one but not the answer to why it's a good idea to re-mark white wires # 10 and larger. Here's one for Mike (only because I know he's a Born Again Christian and would understand and appreciate this)
Let he among you without sin cast the first stone:cool:
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I thought this was over but I have to share this story with you all because it's gotten to the point where it's become ridicuously sad and funny at the same time. After being ticked off for having to make a 2 hour (round trip) to make this correction, the homeowner's daughter called me two days later and said that they haven't had hot water since I was there. The homeowner is elderly with a caretaker who barely speaks English. So, you guessed it - I had to make another 2 hour trip backto reset the breaker that I inadvertantly left off.:rant:

Anyway, as I mentioned, I sent a letter with photos of what I did to correct the violation to the EI. Here's an excerpt from that letter :
Please be advised, I have re-identified the white wire with a blue permanent marker in the circuit breaker panel, disconnect box and water heater wiring compartment in accordance with section 200.7C of the NEC (see attached photos). Please feel free to re-inspect at your convenience. Be advised the homeowner is an elderly woman but has a live in caretaker so, someone is there 24/7. However, it would be helpful if you could notify her daughter, Mrs. XXXXXXXXXX (123-456-7890) as to when you are scheduled to re-inspect so she can inform the caretaker as to when to expect you.
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I get a message on my answering machine from a clerk at the bldg. dept. stating that
We read your letter but we still have to come back and re-inspect. Please call us.
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Now, in all fairness I have to ask, is this just a NJ thing or am I legitimately getting my chops busted ? :? What part of "please feel free to re-inspect at your convenience" aren't they understanding ? What part of "someone is there 24/7" aren't they understanding ? What part of "could you notify the HO's daughter" aren't they understanding". Why don't they just drive by, knock on the door, go in and re-inspect ? My gripe is not with the EI. I'm griping at the process.
And you wonder why EI's get a bad rap.:p
 
goldstar said:
I have to ask, is this just a NJ thing or am I legitimately getting my chops busted ?
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I would expect about the same thing here in most jurisdictions.

If it's local and I call one of the inspectors that I know I could probably take care of it over the phone. But I would still have to request another inspection and give them a call the morning of the inspection to make sure they take care of it.

You are right it's not the EI it's the system. Everything is about records and proper paperwork.

I had a service that I couldn't get reconnected and I had the head electrical inspector on the phone with the power company telling them the inspection passed and that he had faxed the proper paperwork. There was a power company truck on the site but they couldn't touch it without the proper authorization. To make a long story short that was another trip all because there was a problem with the computer at the power company.
 
since I don't normally receive correction notices, I really can't say exactly what happens here. I do know you are supposed to have fourteen days to make corrections, I kind of assume if you don't contact them when corrected they will be contacting you after fourteen days.
 
goldstar said:
I recently failed an inspection on a 30 amp residential water heater. Inspector claims that I have to re-identify the white wire as a non-grounded conductor. Now in all fairness, while he just might end up being correct for some strange NEC reason, logic tells me that if the black and white wires of a 10/2 MC cable are landed on a 2-P-30 amp circuit breaker, wouldn't it seem logical that the white wire is a non-grounded conductor ? Not to mention, I can't think of any 30 amp, 120 volt residential appliances that would require the white # 10 to be landed on the ground bar. Normally I wouldn't care if it was a local job but, as luck would have it, I have to travel 1 hr and back for a 5 minute job to mark a cable.

A simple phone call to me would have sufficed. I could have made the correction the next time I was in the area. IMHO, just a clear cut case of an inspector over-extending his authority by slapping on a red sticker and giving my customer the impression that I'm the south end of a north bound horse.
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I once had an inspector fail an AC inspection because I colored the white wire red. I only had white tape and a red marker. His reasoning was that red is a phase color and residential has split phase not actual single phase. I think it's a joke.
 
Ohms law said:
I once had an inspector fail an AC inspection because I colored the white wire red. I only had white tape and a red marker. His reasoning was that red is a phase color and residential has split phase not actual single phase. I think it's a joke.
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That inspector needs to be flogged - with a 30 inch length of 8 AWG:ashamed:

What if you would have ran say 10-3 cable and used the black and red conductors and left the white unused? If you ran a raceway and pulled conductors you could have used any color imaginable except for white, grey, green or green with yellow stripes for ungrounded conductors.
 
kwired said:
That inspector needs to be flogged - with a 30 inch length of 8 AWG:ashamed:

What if you would have ran say 10-3 cable and used the black and red conductors and left the white unused? If you ran a raceway and pulled conductors you could have used any color imaginable except for white, grey, green or green with yellow stripes for ungrounded conductors.
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And he would require an MWBC to be run with two blacks and a white? Very helpful!
 
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