400.7(11)- Proposal based on PowerBridge thread

[Dennis Alwon]

I wrote a proposal and would like some input. Basically I added a new part to 400.7 Uses Permitted

Change or Addition
400.7(A)(11) Where used to power an inlet (flanged receptacle) and outlet where the wiring thru the premise is a chapter 3 wiring method.

Substantiation:

It appears that some areas of the country will not allow these products based on 400.8(1). I do not see this as a substitute for permanent wiring as the wiring in the walls is approved chapter 3 methods.
This will clarify products used for TV’s and their components that are listed for this use as being NEC approved. Specifically there are products that provide a flanged receptacle inlet that is used to power a flat screen TV from a remote location. The wiring thru the walls would not be connected to the wiring system of the house but would be energized only when a rubber cord similar to a computer monitor cord is used to energize a listed flanged receptacle from the TV’s remote units. This inlet outlet is connected to a wiring method approved by chapter 3. At the other end is a standard receptacle in which the flat screen is plugged into. This apparently allows the TV’s to be on the same circuit and avoid ground loops that can cause problems with TV’s.
These listed products are listed with two sets of cords and both inlet and outlet receptacles.. Without trying to endorse a product here is one of many products out there.

I then posted the powerbridge inlet and outlet-- should I delete the product name? I thought if they wanted to learn more the info was there.

 

[chris kennedy]

This apparently allows the TV’s to be on the same circuit and avoid ground loops that can cause problems with TV’s.

I believe this is an unnecessary statement and the use of the word "apparently" in a "substantiation" is questionable.

 

[LarryFine]

... to power a flat screen TV ...

... or a video projector ...

from a remote location.

 

[G._S._Ohm]

This will clarify products used for TV’s and their components that are listed for this use as being NEC approved.

This will clarify which products used for TV’s. . .?
This will specifically identify products used for TV’s. . .?

through = thru

Is there a template or framework that you are supposed to follow for this?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

This will clarify which products used for TV?s. . .?
This will specifically identify products used for TV?s. . .?

through = thru

Is there a template or framework that you are supposed to follow for this?

Here is a link to the form

I agree with y'all about the phrasing. I will rework it. Thanks.

 

[kbsparky]

....

Change or Addition
400.7(A)(11) Where used to power an inlet (flanged receptacle) and outlet where the wiring thru the premise is a chapter 3 wiring method.

Substantiation:

It appears that some areas of the country will not allow these products based on 400.8(1). I do not see this as a substitute for permanent wiring as the wiring in the walls is approved chapter 3 methods.
This will clarify products used for TV?s and their components that are listed for this use as being NEC approved. Specifically there are products that provide a flanged receptacle inlet that is used to power a flat screen TV from a remote location. The wiring thru the walls would not be connected to the wiring system of the house but would be energized only when a rubber cord similar to a computer monitor cord is used to energize a listed flanged receptacle from the TV?s remote units. This inlet outlet is connected to a wiring method approved by chapter 3. At the other end is a standard receptacle in which the flat screen is plugged into. This apparently allows the TV?s to be on the same circuit and avoid ground loops that can cause problems with TV?s.
These listed products are listed with two sets of cords and both inlet and outlet receptacles.. Without trying to endorse a product here is one of many products out there....

Better get your terms straight. Inlet or flanged inlet is the proper term for your input power.

Receptacle is a term for the outlet at the utilization equipment.

In any case, from what I have seen in past proposals, this is headed for rejection.

 

[Speedskater]

My thoughts:
1] The destination appliance may be:
a} A wall mounted flat screen or video monitor.
b} A ceiling or high wall mounted front projector.
Not all destination appliance's have any connection to TV signals.
2] The series appliance's may be any combination of surge suppressors, power conditioners and UPS's. (These series appliance's may not have a formal definition and may not add to the quality of the AC power)
3] While "ground loop" is an often used term, few understand what it really means.
Ground loops can not be prevented, they can only be controlled.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Here is the re-write

400.7(A)(11) Where used to power a flanged inlet and outlet, and where the wiring between the flanged inlet and the outlet is a chapter 3 wiring method

Substantiation
This will allow identify products used for TV’s and similar equipment, and their components that are listed for this use as being NEC approved. Specifically there are products that provide a flanged inlet that is used to power a flat screen TV or other similar equipment from a remote location. The wiring thru the walls would not be connected to the wiring system of the house but would be energized only when a rubber cord similar to a computer monitor cord is used to energize a listed flanged inlet from the TV’s remote units. This flanged inlet is connected to a wiring method approved by chapter 3. At the other end is a standard receptacle in which the flat screen is plugged into. This allows the TV’s to be on the same circuit and to control ground loops that can cause problems with the TV’s.
These products are listed with two sets of cords and both flanged inlet and outlet receptacle.. Without trying to endorse a product here is one of many products out there.

 

[G._S._Ohm]

3] While "ground loop" is an often used term, few understand what it really means.

That's what I thought, that it was about the same as saying bad mojo, but it is on Wikipedia.

 

[roger]

Here is the re-write

400.7(A)(11) Where used to power a flanged inlet and outlet, and where the wiring between the flanged inlet and the outlet is a chapter 3 wiring method

Substantiation
This will allow identify products used for TV?s and similar equipment, and their components that are listed for this use as being NEC approved. Specifically there are products that provide a flanged inlet that is used to power a flat screen TV or other similar equipment from a remote location. The wiring thru the walls would not be connected to the wiring system of the house but would be energized only when a rubber cord similar to a computer monitor cord is used to energize a listed flanged inlet from the TV?s remote units. This flanged inlet is connected to a wiring method approved by chapter 3. At the other end is a standard receptacle in which the flat screen is plugged into. This allows the TV?s to be on the same circuit and to control ground loops that can cause problems with the TV?s.
These products are listed with two sets of cords and both flanged inlet and outlet receptacle.. Without trying to endorse a product here is one of many products out there.

Dennis, this is the better verison.

Roger

 

[roger]

In any case, from what I have seen in past proposals, this is headed for rejection.

Even if rejected it forces the CMP to respond and there is a good chance they already feel the proposal is allowed somewhere.

Roger

 

[iwire]

I think the wording "used to power a flanged inlet and outlet" would restrict this to only flanged outlets, not standard devices such as duplex receptacles.

 

[G._S._Ohm]

Here is the re-write

400.7(A)(11) Where used to power a flanged inlet and outlet, and where the wiring between the flanged inlet and the outlet is a chapter 3 wiring method

Substantiation
This will allow identification of products used for TV’s and similar equipment, and their components that are listed for this use as being NEC approved. Specifically there are products that provide a flanged inlet that is used to power a flat screen TV or other similar equipment from a remote location. The wiring thru the walls would not be connected to the wiring system of the house but would be energized only when a rubber cord similar to a computer monitor cord is used to energize a listed flanged inlet from the TV’s remote units. This flanged inlet is connected to a wiring method approved by chapter 3. At the other end is a standard receptacle in which the flat screen is plugged into. This allows the TV’s to be on the same circuit and to control ground loops that can cause problems with the TV’s.
These products are listed with two sets of cords and both flanged inlet and outlet receptacle.. Without trying to endorse a product here is one of many products out there.

Thanks for the form.

Here's my take on this as a non-electrician:

Did you
state the problem to be resolved and
give the specific reason for your proposal [your motive in making this proposal]
?

If this is the problem,

'ground loops that can cause problems with the TV’s. '

I'd put it first and substitute 'reduce problems due to' or 'eliminate' for 'control.'

Is there a problem in the NEC with
identification of products used
?

The initial proposals and the final wording in the NEC may or may not match very closely, so I'd ask the NFPA to send you examples of well-written proposals. I don't see how they can refuse this request. Your motive is to not waste your time and theirs.
With a few examples we can maybe pick out what won them over.

There is probably a tradeoff between making your proposal all-encompassing and therefore being more likely to be rejected, and making it narrow and specific.

 

[iwire]

I'd ask the NFPA to send you examples of well-written proposals. I don't see how they can refuse this request.

ROPs and ROCs are online back to the 2002 NEC.

http://www.nfpa.org/itemDetail.asp?...nt process/Proposals (ROP) and Comments (ROC)

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I think the wording "used to power a flanged inlet and outlet" would restrict this to only flanged outlets, not standard devices such as duplex receptacles.

Well I meant it be a flanged inlet and the outlet it provides power to. I guess I can use that wording. What do you think?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Here is a problem that I see and perhaps Justin can help here. If you feed the flanged inlet then there is no limit to the number of outlets that can be provided by this inlet. I see that as an issue perhaps. Does one normally power more than one outlet thru the flanged inlet or one inlet and one outlet.

I was thinking in the proposal to add the flanged inlet may only supply one outlet. What say you?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

ROPs and ROCs are online back to the 2002 NEC.

http://www.nfpa.org/itemDetail.asp?categoryID=817&itemID=38243&URL=Codes%20&%20Standards/Code%20development%20process/Proposals%20%28ROP%29%20and%20Comments%20%28ROC%29

You can look at the proposals that are a lot older than 2002 here.

 

[mivey]

You can look at the proposals that are a lot older than 2002 here.

Don, I saw a place you could buy old versions of the NEC but not old ROPs. What did I miss?

 

[mivey]

Here is a problem that I see and perhaps Justin can help here. If you feed the flanged inlet then there is no limit to the number of outlets that can be provided by this inlet. I see that as an issue perhaps. Does one normally power more than one outlet thru the flanged inlet or one inlet and one outlet.

I was thinking in the proposal to add the flanged inlet may only supply one outlet. What say you?

Some of these devices on the market have a duplex receptacle at the outlet.

 

[roger]

The initial proposals and the final wording in the NEC may or may not match very closely, so I'd ask the NFPA to send you examples of well-written proposals. I don't see how they can refuse this request. Your motive is to not waste your time and theirs.
With a few examples we can maybe pick out what won them over.

There is probably a tradeoff between making your proposal all-encompassing and therefore being more likely to be rejected, and making it narrow and specific.

Dennis is very familiar with ROP's and the code making process, if you use the links provided by Bob and Don you will find a good number of them from MH forum members.

Roger