400A Residential Service

[Cold Fusion]

.. I have never done a 400A service for a residence... I know how to write one up for commercial, but not for residential.

I'm with George. That's a three phase arrangement on the pole and I don't see it feeding anything else

Why not approach this as though it were small commercial?

I don't do residential and very little commercial. Could be the answer is readily apparent to all but me.:-?

cf

 

[cadpoint]

cool, cant wait to see them.

Heres a handy tool I use to resize photos http://www.rw-designer.com/picture-resize its a little exe you place on your desktop or in a folder, name it to whatever size you want the width to be, then you just drag your photos (you can do one, or a group) onto it and it resizes them.

Here's another one www.picresize.com/

 

[Greg Swartz]

Are you sure it isn't a three phase service? Kinda looks that way from the street.

Around here, anything over 200A requires an engineers stamp.

If you can in your area, I'm curious. How do you sell this service? Do you just say the whole place is a fire waiting to happen, and it would cost $xxxx for you to re-engineer the whole thing, and walk away?

Edit: I just realized that you are also an engineer, so the question doesn't really apply to you in the vein I originally intended. I'm curious what non-engineers do in that circumstance.

1. I know it does look like a 3 phase system from the street. When you close up the 2/0 AL feeders coming in overhead, there are 3 of them. And, the insulation is starting to fray at the overhead as well. Good job on the picture, George. I like doing that to people as well... it is fun!
2. When I get to the main line coming to the breakers, it looks like 2 fused lines and 1 unfused line coming in. When I see it go to the meters, the unfused is definately a grounded conducter. When I look at the fused panel (all old style S type screw in Buss fuses), even the neutral is fused... Quite confident it is single phase. If memory serves me right, this part of town is 7600, and not 7200 like the rest of town...
3. George, I am going to price everything. I gotta talk to the head electrical inspector again, because I wanna know what he wants... before I start giving numbers. (problem is, they want numbers NOW!)

I'm with George. That's a three phase arrangement on the pole and I don't see it feeding anything else. You definitely need to talk with POCO, 3 phase can make a difference in how they meter. With the square footage you are talking about, a 400 amp service in this area would probably require 3 phase, but there are obviuously a lot of varibales in the load.

Once again, I know it looks like a 3 phase system, but it is not.
There are a lot of large houses out here.

What is a carriage house? Is that like a garage for carriages as in horse and carrages?

Do the math. Do a survey of what is going on with the service in more detail. Figure out the POCO requirements. Draw it out how you propose to do it. Submit it to the AHJ, POCO, and owner for aproval...

...That's more for the customer to decide and the POCO to aprove.

Quote:
But have never even seen a 400A residential panel.

No loadcenter that big. As said it is most often 2 200A loadcenters. Some areas we were in requires residences with 400a services to have a single 400a disco or panel. Then you would see the panel boards in homes.

1. A carriage house is for... carriages. Now, it is being used as a LARGE 3 car garage... with each bay able to handle a decent sized RV... and all the incoming power, and 2 sleeping quarters... and a kitchen...
2. I'm stuck in a sequencing situation here. I need the POCO and AHJ to tell me what they want... so that I can price the engineering... then I can price the electrical...
3. I understand the HO needs to decide about underground / overhead. I have already talked to the HO. They indicated they would prefer to have underground. I would as well...
4. Point noted about the loadcenters. May look at panelboards then... QOB would do nicely in this area... give me some good options for 200A breakers... of course, now we're dealing with commercial grade equipment then... which takes us to other areas of this post...

Now, if I could just get my truck back, so I could visit the AHJ!

 

[wireguru]

Here's another one www.picresize.com/

just something i wanted to point out:

picresize.com is an online resizer which means you need to upload your photo to them, if you have 20x 10Mb photos to resize, that can take a while.

The one I posted is a software tool you download that allows you to quickly resize photos locally, and in batches.

 

[wireguru]

and wheres our pics of this old service?

 

[LarryFine]

This Old Service

This Old Service

. . . this old service?

Wow! What a great idea for a new TV series!

 

[quogueelectric]

same here, they called it a 320 amp service, by me thats a 400 amp service I used 2 CH 200 amp panels 40 circuits no CT's. Are you saying you would only use 150 amp main breakers in the panels?

Charlie

Yes this is all that is allowed here . 2-200s needs a CT cabinet even resi.

 

[StreamlineGT]

If it had a 400 amp service back in the 40's, they must need an upgrade by now. Try to sell them an 800!!

 

[cadpoint]

... just something i wanted to point out: ...

Here I spelled it wrong, I meant PIXresizer (via a search engine) verses www.picresize.com/

duh!

This would be a download and used on one's CPU!

 

[wireguru]

Here I spelled it wrong, I meant PIXresizer (via a search engine) verses www.picresize.com/

duh!

This would be a download and used on one's CPU!

cool, ill check that out. Take a look at mine though. You dont have to open a program. You just drag the photo onto the program icon and it does its thing and resizes the photo.

 

[Greg Swartz]

Been a week now...

Been a week now...

Ok, I know it's been a while, but here goes...

Regional building department says: Everything new.
I did a load calc on the house and carriage house: 306A...

The POCO says: 320A meter... unless you want CTs and 400A meter.
POCO says 320A meter is good for 400A. Because of 80% rule.

We potentially have a green light to get started... and I haven't gotten numbers out yet!

I am going on-site again tomorrow. We're going to check out what we need to remove as far as disconnecting means are concerned.

So, right now, we're going from Overhead to Underground, and putting a meter on the carriage house, with a 400A disco, and 2 sets of feeders to 2 - 200A panels... about 10-15' away.

Things are in motion, and I don't even have a permit in place!!!

I gotta get some signed documentation, or I know I'll be in trouble... It's an insurance company!!! They'll stab my back in a heartbeat!


I know, I know, I'll get some pictures for you ASAP.

Gotta go! We have more work than we can handle right now, and I don't want to hire another person yet!

Greg

 

[wireguru]

im still waiting for my photos of the old service

 

[Cow]

So, right now, we're going from Overhead to Underground, and putting a meter on the carriage house, with a 400A disco, and 2 sets of feeders to 2 - 200A panels... about 10-15' away.

Why a 400 amp disco?

Why not 2-200 amp discos or feed-thru panels?

 

[Greg Swartz]

Why a 400 amp disco?

Why not 2-200 amp discos or feed-thru panels?

Right now, I'm thinking a 320A meter next to a 400A disco. This will be done outside the building. We're running underground from the pole to the carriage house. Then up to the new meter & disco.

We can't run unprotected feeders inside a building. (Yes, I know certain restrictions apply here, but we have to make this reasonable, otherwise the insurance company will not go for this.)

Then run 2 - 2" conduits out of the back of the 400A disco to the 2 new 200A panels we will be installing.

Then we will look at removing some of the existing disconnects...

Does this make sense? Do you have a better idea?
Keep in mind, a lower cost solution is better with the insurance company.
Also, we are giving them a completely NEW system...
And this is residential...

I'm gonna ask to keep the existing equipment.
Gotta take lots of photos, and maybe donate some of this to the local school.

 

[quogueelectric]

same here, they called it a 320 amp service, by me thats a 400 amp service I used 2 CH 200 amp panels 40 circuits no CT's. Are you saying you would only use 150 amp main breakers in the panels?

Charlie

Exactly Two 150s max that is all they will allow. I have tried to argue the 80% thing as other areas allow 2-200s instead of 2-150s they werent hearing any of it.

 

[benmin]

Around here you don't need CT's. You just have one meter and then 2-200 amp main breaker panels inside. Simple as that.

Same as we do it here

 

[Greg Swartz]

Help!

Help!

Ok, so I've been looking for a 400A residential disconnect with 2 sets of 200A breakers.
I'm finding no love.

Any suggestions? Other ideas?

I am thinking of bringing power to the 320A meter, to a 400A disco... that hopefully has 2 - 200A main breakers. All of this is outside, so NEMA 3R is required.

This will in turn feed 2 panels inside the carriage house.
I keep thinking about going into the carriage house with the electrical, but I can't bring unprotected feeders into the carriage house...

 

[quogueelectric]

Ok, so I've been looking for a 400A residential disconnect with 2 sets of 200A breakers.
I'm finding no love.

Any suggestions? Other ideas?

I am thinking of bringing power to the 320A meter, to a 400A disco... that hopefully has 2 - 200A main breakers. All of this is outside, so NEMA 3R is required.

This will in turn feed 2 panels inside the carriage house.
I keep thinking about going into the carriage house with the electrical, but I can't bring unprotected feeders into the carriage house...

Your poco doesnt have an online pdf for what is available in your area?? Every other poco that I know has this. Or just call them and ask them. They almost gave birth to a cow on thier desk when I asked them about a 320/400 resi service because nobody knew the answer. I was working on thier facility for a genset hookup and on my lunch break I dropped the bomb. Took them a week to recover and some of the poco workers hated me because he did not have an answer in front of his boss. Just ask them very discreetly and that you know this is not a normal install but you just want to do it right the first time. If poco cant tell you who can????

 

[wireguru]

Ok, so I've been looking for a 400A residential disconnect with 2 sets of 200A breakers.
I'm finding no love.

Any suggestions? Other ideas?

I am thinking of bringing power to the 320A meter, to a 400A disco... that hopefully has 2 - 200A main breakers. All of this is outside, so NEMA 3R is required.

This will in turn feed 2 panels inside the carriage house.
I keep thinking about going into the carriage house with the electrical, but I can't bring unprotected feeders into the carriage house...

Milbank makes a 320A meter/main with two 200a breakers in it. The p/n is U5059-X-2/200-K3L its ringless, dont know if thats the right kind for your poco

 

[Greg Swartz]

Your poco doesnt have an online pdf for what is available in your area??

Yes, they do. I have it. Pasted below. Forum is not friendly to table pasting...

Milbank makes a 320A meter/main with two 200a breakers in it. The p/n is U5059-X-2/200-K3L its ringless, dont know if thats the right kind for your poco

Sweet. I'll check it out. Thank you. That sounds just like what I want.

Meter Socket, 4 Terminal,
320A, Lever Bypass
(underground)​

?​

Single Phase, 3 Wire, 240V
Milbank Manufacturing Co:
U3000-0-K3L-K2L-5T9
Siemens/Landis & Gyr:
48104-8203
Meter Socket, 4 Terminal,
320A, Lever Bypass
(overhead)​

?​

Single Phase, 3 Wire, 240V
Milbank Manufacturing Co:
U1779-RRL-K3
Siemens/Landis & Gyr:​

47707-82