430.102

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ryan_618

ryan_618

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Salt Lake City, Utah
I am trying to come up with language to create an exception to 430.102(A) for the 2011.

The problem is that every controller needs a disconnect, unless over 600V or unless there is a group of controllers.

Scenario: Cord and plug connected disposal. The cord and plug is the disconnect for the disposal, and the switch above the countertop is the controller (see controller] definition). The controller (switch) requires a disconnect within sight of the controller. In other words, you need a switch in front of the switch, to act as a disconnect for the switch!!!

What should the exception be?
Dwelling units?
Controllers with a marked "off" postition that switches all ungrounded conductors?
Controllers that meet the requirements to be used as a disconnect (430.109)?
 
Ryan,
The same issue is present with manual motor starters. Mayby the exception should say that manually operated controllers that open all ungrounded conductors do not require a disconnect.
Don
 
430.74 Disconnection.

(A) General. Motor control circuits shall be arranged so that they will be disconnected from all sources of supply when the disconnecting means is in the open position. The disconnecting means shall be permitted to consist of two or more separate devices, one of which disconnects the motor and the controller from the source(s) of power supply for the motor, and the other(s), the motor control circuit(s) from its power supply. Where separate devices are used, they shall be located immediately adjacent to each other.

(B) Control Transformer in Controller Enclosure. Where a transformer or other device is used to obtain a reduced voltage for the motor control circuit and is located in the controller enclosure, such transformer or other device shall be connected to the load side of the disconnecting means for the motor control circuit

430.102 Location.

(A) Controller. An individual disconnecting means shall be provided for each controller and shall disconnect the controller from all sources of supply. The disconnecting means shall be located in sight from the controller location.

(B) Motor. A disconnecting means shall be located in sight from the motor location and the driven machinery location.

If you added to 430.102 what is bolded. Couldn't we just eliminate 430.74
 
A motor controller that opens all of the ungrounded conductors is permitted to serve as the disconnecting means (430.84 Exception). The disposal switch could be considered both the controller and the disconecting means.
 
RB1,
That permits the controller to be the disconnect for the motor. The code also requires a disconnect on the line side of the controller.
430.102 Location
(A) Controller An individual disconnecting means shall be provided for each controller and shall disconnect the controller. The disconnecting means shall be located in sight from the controller location.
Click to expand...
In this case the wall switch is the controller and the cord and plug is the motor disconnect. We are missing the disconnect for the controller.
Don
 
If the disposal and dishwasher are appliances ( I believe they are) then the disconnecting requirements are addressed in422.31 (05) and 422.32,thru 35??

Charlie
 
Pierre,
How is a single pole switch not also a means of disconnect?
Click to expand...
It is, but it is also the controller and the code requires that the controller have a line side disconnect. As I said in an earlier post this same issue with the code wording occurs anytime you use a manual motor starter as a motor controller. The wording needs work, or the section needs an exception.
Don
 
cpal said:
If the disposal and dishwasher are appliances ( I believe they are) then the disconnecting requirements are addressed in422.31 (05) and 422.32,thru 35??

Charlie
Click to expand...

Yes, it must comply with 422.32, which sends you to 430 part IX, and then requires a disconnect for the controller.

Don: You and I are on the same page. I just can't make up my mind on how I should phrase an exception (for 90% of the installations in the world!).
 
ryan_618 said:
What should the exception be?
Dwelling units?
Controllers with a marked "off" postition that switches all ungrounded conductors?
Controllers that meet the requirements to be used as a disconnect (430.109)?
Click to expand...
Exception:
No disconnect needed for controller, if the load being supplied is a cord & plug connected device?
No Disconnet or controller needed for cord & plug connected kitchen appliances. residential.

Why is it so hard to word common sense?
Does the code require a disconnect for a controller for a bathroom vent fan motor? Why can't we look at this the same way?
 
I can't believe I just read this thread. You could as well say that I am the controller and that I need a disconnecting means. Please, I am sure that there was no intention on the writers of that section to say the switch is the controller and needs a disconecting means or we would all be putting in two switches to for a disposer.
 
bikeindy said:
I can't believe intention on the writers of that section to say the switch is the controller and needs a disconecting means or we would all be putting in two switches to for a disposer.
Click to expand...

Well... the views in Utah are breath taking, & Ryan wants two switches side by side for the disposal.
I'd say the trade off is worth it....
 
So a switch in front of a cord and plug (disconnecting means) disposal is a controller. I can't see that... the switch is a disconnecting means in front of the cord and plug disposal.

Lets not become so literal that we can't see the trees for the forest.

Lets also not write more code than is necessary... each cycle it becomes that much longer without this kind of unnecessary additional verbage.
 
Dish washers and disposals being appliances may have their BC Breakers as a disconnect. 422 provides for these breakers to be capable of being locked regardless as to weither a lock is present. Are you suggesting that a disconnect shouls be disregarded by exception?? or are you suggesting that a disconnect for the controller should be remote??

Either way!! I think 422 addresses the issue of disconnects for appliances. A refernce to Article 430 34 is (in most cases made moot via the exception. 422.34 A-D covers most installations,vers most installations although I'm sure some one can point to exceptions to the exception.

??


Charlie
 
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I'm not saying that the intent is a switch installed in front of the switch.
I'm not saying that I enforce it that way either.
I am saying that the code requires it, intentionaly or not.
I am also saying that it needs to be fixed, lest someone require the literal code requirement and make many enemies. :)
 
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