$500.00 ground rod

[ceb]

Where the heck would you get a 4' ground rod? And to be honestest here in Massachusetts it only cost about $9 and change for a galvy ground rod and about $13 and change for a copper so why would you cheap out on something like that? But in all honesty I never seen a 4' ground rod before :grin:

One 8' G rod + one saw saw = 2 4' rods:wink:

 

[Nick]

About 25 years ago I put 7' of an 8' long GR in and hit solid rock. Finally after an hour of pounding with a sledge hammer I cut off about 6" and pounded some more. The POCO guy told me I only a 7' GR and refused to put the meter in. He didn't pull it, how did he know? I drove another in right beside it that I slightly bent so it would curve at the rock. Same guy came back and he put the meter in....

Next time you buy a new ground rod take a close look at the driving end. The manufacturer stamps information there. (I don't remember what it is as I haven't looked in years) If that stamp is missing that's a sure sign the rod has been cut. I suppose someone could cut off the pointed end and then try and drive it but...

 

[Brady Electric]

$500 ground rod

$500 ground rod

I think anyone that has been in the business for a long time is guilty of cutting off grounds from time to time.
I have never cut any rod off that I didn't need to. Such as hitting rock and the rod starts to bend and in some cases just won't go any more. I try to always install ground rods according to code. Let's face it there is a reason for 8 foot rods. I have called inspectors and ask them what to do if I had trouble driving rods and they have told me to cut it off. "ONLY" in situations that it can't be driven more. A ground rod sticking up can be dangerous. Also remember you don't have to drive it straight down you can drive it at a angle. I think any ground rod you can pull out is not good and you should drive two. Like Marc said when I drive one I cannot get it out I leave it on the job. Here in N.C. we have to drive two rods, the second within 10' from the other. On temporary services we drive only one. Houses we drive two. (REMEMBER THEY ARE THERE FOR A REASON) It's not my favorite thing to do but lets face it. ITS PART OF THE JOB.
(A GROUND ROD ONLY 4 FEET THAT YOU CAN PULL OUT) Why not just lay it on the ground?
As far as not giving you a hard time for a mistake I don't agree because you had to know better. If its a ground rod this time what will it be next time. All of us make mistakes but not on ground rods.

 

[ceknight]

Let's face it there is a reason for 8 foot rods.

What is that reason, besides tradition?

I was under the impression (based on something I read a while back) that the deeper a section of rod goes, the less effective that section is at whatever it is it's supposed to be effective at.

 

[hockeyoligist2]

When I put in that GR 25 years ago, no one around here stocked a "factory" ground rod, the closest electrical supply was 30 miles away. We had to go to the local hardware store. The one I cut off was just a solid steel rod. I used a side grinder to sharpen it. The POCO didn't care if it was a piece of 1/2" galvanized pipe, as long as it was 8' long!

Things haven't changed much in the rural areas, they do require a "factory" ground rod according to the instructions from POCO. But I don't think they even check anymore!

 

[LarryFine]

Back when I was but a wee helper, I drove many a 3/4" rigid conduit as a ground rod.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Larry,

Back when I was but a wee helper, I drove many a 3/4" rigid conduit as a ground rod.

With a wedge clamp and 1/2 rigid as the grounding electrode conductor? That is what was required here by the utility when I started. The also required that the grounded conductor not be broken when it passed through the meter can.
Don

 

[kbsparky]

I cut one off just last week.

It was sticking up about 3 inches, and was a trip hazard. I had tripped on it twice before I instructed my helper to cut the blasted thing off below the ground surface.

We were going to drive it in the last few inches, BUT ....

This service pedestal was serving a pumping station over a large sewage holding tank. The ground rod had hit the tank, and driving it further would have damaged the tank, and caused expensive environmental contamination.

Figured that was the lesser of 2 evils ... :roll:

 

[Bulldog1401]

Ground rods

Ground rods

If the NEC prescribes it there is a reason..maybe it is beyond your understanding at that level of your career..but there is a reason. Ground rods are not useless... The standard is typically 25 ohms to ground.... if it takes more than 1 rod to achieve this.. then so be it..( have driven three before) I too have hit ledge very close to the surface..you can bury them in a trench laid end to end if need be.. 8 feet gives you a surface area of contact with the earth for a purpose.. dont reduce the surface area by cutting it off at 4 or 6 feet...

 

[ceknight]

If the NEC prescribes it there is a reason..maybe it is beyond your understanding at that level of your career..but there is a reason.

I'm not sure what level of my career I have to be at to ask a serious question about the reason the rod has to be a full 8' in the ground. Just asserting that there is a reason (besides tradition) doesn't exactly answer my question.

The NEC prescribes other things that there is no apparent good reason for. Like AFCIs, just to pick a current favorite. Only difference is we know why they're prescribing those -- manufacturer lobbying.

 

[Bulldog1401]

code justification

code justification

I am sure that neither of us has seen it all or done it all.. the code is written to cover it all.. by a group of electricians and others that have each not seen or done it all, but together have seen and done more than you. From this code writing forum comes professional discussion on how to avoid dangerous situations in nearly all installations, and then blanket rules are formed that will not harm anyone but will provide safety in 99.9% of the installs. These rules are heavily scrutinized, and then made manditory.

I think you are right about arc faults. But do they harm anyone?

 

[iwire]

If the NEC prescribes it there is a reason..

Maybe there was a reason, at this point the purpose of a ground rod is not that clear.

maybe it is beyond your understanding at that level of your career..

You question someones experience because they ask a question that you can not answer with any more then 'there must be a reason'?

Ground rods are not useless...

What are they useful for?

The standard is typically 25 ohms to ground.... if it takes more than 1 rod to achieve this.. then so be it..( have driven three before)

The NEC does not require us to achieve 25 ohms or less.

Job specifications might.

 

[roger]

The standard is typically 25 ohms to ground.... if it takes more than 1 rod to achieve this.. then so be it..( have driven three before)

Bulldog, the NEC doesn't require 25 ohms for more than one rod, it could be 10,000 ohms'. Unless it was a specification to a particular job, there was no reason to drive the third rod for NEC compliance

Even if you made it to the 25 ohms it wouldn't be much more efficient than 1000 ohms would be for it's intended purpose.


Roger

 

[Bulldog1401]

ground rods

ground rods

Don't get confused, Iwire, I dont question anyones experience for asking a question... no one knew before they asked.. I question an electrician who would modify listed equipment for his convience...for that matter several aspects of electrical work are inconvenient.. but we do things a certain way for a reason.. If a groundrod is UL listed at 8 feet in length, then it must be installed at 8 feet in length... 250.53 D 2 FPN may help..as well as the explaination for having them at all.. located elsewhere in 250 ( I am not telling you where so that you might actually read the section over..) have a nice day..

 

[roger]

Don't get confused, Iwire, I dont question anyones experience for asking a question... no one knew before they asked.. I question an electrician who would modify listed equipment for his convience...for that matter several aspects of electrical work are inconvenient.. but we do things a certain way for a reason.. If a groundrod is UL listed at 8 feet in length, then it must be installed at 8 feet in length... 250.53 D 2 FPN may help..as well as the explaination for having them at all.. located elsewhere in 250 ( I am not telling you where so that you might actually read the section over..) have a nice day..

So there Bob. :grin:

BTW, can you find the FPN to 250.53(D)(2)?

Roger

 

[petersonra]

I have to believe there are worse things going on than cheating on ground rod length. But if you are going to cheat on something, cheating on something that is of dubious value in the first place is the place to cheat.

 

[ceknight]

Don't get confused, Iwire, I dont question anyones experience for asking a question... no one knew before they asked.. I question an electrician who would modify listed equipment for his convience..

For the record, I didn't admit to modifying any equipment, nor did I advocate it. I'm well aware of the ground rod rules such as they are. That's all pretty much irrelevant to the question I asked.

I asked:

What is that reason, besides tradition?

I was under the impression (based on something I read a while back) that the deeper a section of rod goes, the less effective that section is at whatever it is it's supposed to be effective at.

And I asked it in response to someone's asserting that there simply was a reason. The question's still open, if you feel like tackling it.

 

[ceknight]

BTW, can you find the FPN to 250.53(D)(2)?

I need to buy a new book, mine's defective.

 

[iwire]

Don't get confused, Iwire, I dont question anyones experience for asking a question... no one knew before they asked.. I question an electrician who would modify listed equipment for his convience...for that matter several aspects of electrical work are inconvenient.. but we do things a certain way for a reason.. If a groundrod is UL listed at 8 feet in length, then it must be installed at 8 feet in length...

Just like the weather outside right now, lots of hot air.....

( I am not telling you where so that you might actually read the section over..)

LMAO

That will keep me chuckling for hours....

 

[Bulldog1401]

Ground rods

Ground rods

250.53(D)(2) in on page 209 of the 2005 NEC handbook... My mistakenot a FPN but commentary. I was on my way out the door when I wrote that.
it references 250.56, which spells out 25 ohms to ground.

Iwire, when you are done laughing, take a deep breath so that your brain can get some much deprived oxygen. Then, without getting distracted by all the pretty pictures, read 250.4(A)(1).

Geeze, I really dont like bickering with my fellow electricians like this. They are the group of people in the trades that I admire the most.. but I also don't like being torn apart by a synical moderator for being right.....it seems that more than half of the posts on this thread agree as to the importance of ground rods...