50A GFCI Breaker for garage

[MisterMoSparky]

Currently this homeowner has a 200A panel in their basement with a 50A breaker supplying power to a Subpanel in the garage. Whoever ran wire to garage in the past did not provide an equipment ground. They only provided an SER cable with 2 insulated hots and a bare uninsulated neutral. Several questions, if homeowner does not plan on having 240V loads in garage would it be okay to simply put 1 insulated conductor as a hot, the second insulated conductor as a neutral, and the uninsulated conductor as an equipment ground, all on a 50A GFCI breaker. Will breaker preform properly with only one pole of breaker and neutral being used. Additionally let’s say homeowner does want a 240v load out in garage. GFCI protection can be used in lieu of an equipment ground but will the uninsulated neutral wire cause issues with leakage and nuisance tripping. Also if no equipment ground is provided to the garage do I need to supply a grounding electrode outside of the garage to protect equipment inside Subpanel?

 

[augie47]

Currently this homeowner has a 200A panel in their basement with a 50A breaker supplying power to a Subpanel in the garage. Whoever ran wire to garage in the past did not provide an equipment ground. They only provided an SER cable with 2 insulated hots and a bare uninsulated neutral. Several questions, if homeowner does not plan on having 240V loads in garage would it be okay to simply put 1 insulated conductor as a hot, the second insulated conductor as a neutral, and the uninsulated conductor as an equipment ground, all on a 50A GFCI breaker. YES Will breaker preform properly with only one pole of breaker and neutral being used. Additionally let’s say homeowner does want a 240v load out in garage. GFCI protection can be used in lieu of an equipment ground but will the uninsulated neutral wire cause issues with leakage and nuisance tripping. , NO, AN EGC is required Also if no equipment ground is provided to the garage do I need to supply a grounding electrode outside of the garage to protect equipment inside Subpanel? Again, an EGC is required. As far as a GEC, Is the garage attached or detached ?

 

[jaggedben]

Depending on whether it needs to be inspected, or was inspected at some point in the past, I might just bond the neutral to ground at the garage and drive an electrode. This used to be allowed. See 250.32(B) Exception.

 

[tom baker]

The GFCI may see too much leakage current and trip. Best option is to regroup the neutral and eliminate any parallel ground paths

 

[LarryFine]

Depending on whether it needs to be inspected, or was inspected at some point in the past, I might just bond the neutral to ground at the garage and drive an electrode. This used to be allowed. See 250.32(B) Exception.

Only in detached structures.

 

[Jpflex]

I

Depending on whether it needs to be inspected, or was inspected at some point in the past, I might just bond the neutral to ground at the garage and drive an electrode. This used to be allowed. See 250.32(B) Exception.

believe there can be no GFCI installed at the source (first building feeding garage) and no ground bonding between building and garage among other things to use the exemption for the neutral also as a GEC for previous allowed installations to continue

 

[letgomywago]

Making it 120v only panel and no GFCI would be the only option in my opinion. I'd see if I could sell them on a 80-90 amp subpanel so they have room for welders and car chargers and just redo it.

 

[jaggedben]

Only in detached structures.

Yeah somehow I took it to be detached but you're right. He didn't say.

 

[ptonsparky]

Yeah somehow I took it to be detached but you're right. He didn't say.

My immediate thought was detached and when it was installed originally, too.
Dang details get in the way.

 

[MisterMoSparky]

It is a detached garage. I was trying my best to save the homeowner some money because they had already had so much work done by us. Running a new wire does not seem the most cost effective solution for them since they plan on selling the home in the future. Ultimately I’m just concerned because there’s no effective ground fault current path and I’m just trying to provide options. I agree that the best solution would be a 120v panel with only one leg available.

 

[MisterMoSparky]

Making it 120v only panel and no GFCI would be the only option in my opinion. I'd see if I could sell them on a 80-90 amp subpanel so they have room for welders and car chargers and just redo it.

I believe running any new wire would be out of the way simply because of the damage to build a trench would cost. If I make it a 120v only panel they couldn’t have any 240v loads.

 

[MisterMoSparky]

Depending on whether it needs to be inspected, or was inspected at some point in the past, I might just bond the neutral to ground at the garage and drive an electrode. This used to be allowed. See 250.32(B) Exception.

Not inspected. And I doubt it was inspected before in the past, this woman lives in a double wide that was lifted up, built a whole bottom floor underneath, built additions on, and finally put this detached garage on the property. This double wide has an old 320A service.

 

[MisterMoSparky]

I believe I misunderstood the years of people telling me GFCI takes place of no equipment grounds rule for 120v receptacles 406.4(D2). I didn’t realize that didn't apply to feeders. Thank you for clearing that up for me.

 

[ptonsparky]

OP. When was the garage originally wired? See Post 3. You may not need to change anything.

 

[suemarkp]

If neutral and ground sre bonded together at that subpanel, you have a fault current path. There is no need to rip that feeder out if it was compliant when installed, and I think it was the 2008 code that eliminated this option.

 

[MisterMoSparky]

OP. When was the garage originally wired? See Post 3. You may not need to change anything.

Easily 30+ years ago couldn’t tell exactly.

 

[MisterMoSparky]

If neutral and ground sre bonded together at that subpanel, you have a fault current path. There is no need to rip that feeder out if it was compliant when installed, and I think it was the 2008 code that eliminated this option.

Isn’t that a parallel path though considering the service panel in the house has grounds and neutrals bonded? Also this would cause interference trying to provide any type of GFCI protection.

 

[retirede]

Isn’t that a parallel path though considering the service panel in the house has grounds and neutrals bonded? Also this would cause interference trying to provide any type of GFCI protection.

No and no.

There’s only a parallel path if there’s more than one path, such as a metallic water line.

As stated previously, this was a proper installation before 2008.

 

[ActionDave]

Isn’t that a parallel path though considering the service panel in the house has grounds and neutrals bonded?

In order to have a parallel path you need another path besides the normal current carrying conductors between the house and the garage. Before 2005 it was allowed by the NEC to bond the neutral at a separate structure as long as there were no other conductive paths between the two buildings.

Also this would cause interference trying to provide any type of GFCI protection.

No.

 

[tthh]

...I was trying my best to save the homeowner some money because they had already had so much work done by us...

You did you best. Sometimes that's how it goes. The original installation was wrong or shortsighted and that isn't your fault.