680-21 C GFCI For 240v Commercial Pool Pump

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jusme123 said:
Why are you limiting it just to altering the circuit, when the code clearly states, " when the branch circuits or overcurrent devices are altered, installed, modified, relocated, repaired, or replaced"?
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What part of changing out a starter is altering the branch circuit unless you actually do change the branch circuit?
Maybe the starter was damaged for some other reason, and you're simply changing the starter out to what was there before.

My comment on the "Altering" part wasn't directed at the branch circuit, it was in reference to "Altering" an overcurrent device,,, which an overload is in fact an "overload device".

I wouldn't think the rule would apply by simply adjusting an overload one way or the other.

Hence my suggestion that the rule applied to the wiring on the line side of the starter not on the load side of the overloads.

Hard for me to explain in writing... oh well.

JAP>
 
The bc starts before the contactor at the bc ocpd. I would say replacing or reworking anything downstream of the bc ocpd alters the bc.
 
jap said:
What part of changing out a starter is altering the branch circuit unless you actually do change the branch circuit?
Maybe the starter was damaged for some other reason, and you're simply changing the starter out to what was there before.

My comment on the "Altering" part wasn't directed at the branch circuit, it was in reference to "Altering" an overcurrent device,,, which an overload is in fact an "overload device".

I wouldn't think the rule would apply by simply adjusting an overload one way or the other.

Hence my suggestion that the rule applied to the wiring on the line side of the starter not on the load side of the overloads.

Hard for me to explain in writing... oh well.

JAP>
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Changing the starter probably isn't seen by most as altering the branch circuit.

But this particular section also says " when the branch circuits or overcurrent devices are altered, installed, modified, relocated, repaired, or replaced.

dont know how much I agree with wording it that way but it is what it says.
 
Sounds like the question is whether the starter is part of the branch circuit, i.e. where the outlet(s) are. Might depend on the wiring method from starter to motor, not sure. A cousin to the "is a switch an outlet?" question.

Cheers, Wayne
 
petersonra said:
The bc starts before the contactor at the bc ocpd. I would say replacing or reworking anything downstream of the bc ocpd alters the bc.
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That may be, but, if so, this seems to be another one of those , you touch it, you're upgrading it rules. :)

JAP>
 
jap said:
That may be, but, if so, this seems to be another one of those , you touch it, you're upgrading it rules. :)

JAP>
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I don't see that literally touching it has anything to do with "when the branch circuits or overcurrent devices are altered, installed, modified, relocated, repaired, or replaced".

OTOH, it would be an adder the electrician could justify fairly easily by claiming the inspector might demand it. Most people are well aware that inspectors can be very arbitrary in their enforcement practices. An extra thousand bucks is not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of such things. Especially if the pool gets shut down for some period of time over it.
 
wwhitney said:
Sounds like the question is whether the starter is part of the branch circuit, i.e. where the outlet(s) are. Might depend on the wiring method from starter to motor, not sure. A cousin to the "is a switch an outlet?" question.

Cheers, Wayne
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I would say a starter doesn't fall within the definition of a branch circuit.

JAP>
 
petersonra said:
I don't see that literally touching it has anything to do with "when the branch circuits or overcurrent devices are altered, installed, modified, relocated, repaired, or replaced".

OTOH, it would be an adder the electrician could justify fairly easily by claiming the inspector might demand it. Most people are well aware that inspectors can be very arbitrary in their enforcement practices. An extra thousand bucks is not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of such things. Especially if the pool gets shut down for some period of time over it.
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If you cant simply change out a starter (without redoing any of the existing wiring) and you have to upgrade it to the new rule, I would beg to differ.

JAP>
 
wwhitney said:
Sounds like the question is whether the starter is part of the branch circuit, i.e. where the outlet(s) are. Might depend on the wiring method from starter to motor, not sure. A cousin to the "is a switch an outlet?" question.

Cheers, Wayne
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Art 100 definition of branch circuit I'd say includes motor controls, switches, receptacles, etc. that carry current of that circuit.
 
I hope someone will post the actual definition.

In my mind the branch circuit relates to the "wiring", not the devices or controls but I'd have to look it up.

JAP>
 
I read somewhere that Motor Overload protection does not fall into the category of branch circuit protection.

JAP>
 
jap said:
I read somewhere that Motor Overload protection does not fall into the category of branch circuit protection.

JAP>
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Motor circuits get higher short circuit and ground fault protection in general as it is necessary to allow starting. The branch circuit conductors however are still protected from overloads by the motor overload protection whether it be integral to the SCGF device, the motor controller, a stand alone device, or even integral overload protection within the motor itself, which is somewhat common on single phase AC motors.
 
Motor running protection (i.e. overload relay) is not the same as motor over current protection. The NEC has different rules rules for both of these types of devices, so I would consider the starter and overload as not being part of the branch circuit.
 
jim dungar said:
Motor running protection (i.e. overload relay) is not the same as motor over current protection. The NEC has different rules rules for both of these types of devices, so I would consider the starter and overload as not being part of the branch circuit.
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I'm with Jim. :)

Jap.
 
jim dungar said:
Motor running protection (i.e. overload relay) is not the same as motor over current protection. The NEC has different rules rules for both of these types of devices, so I would consider the starter and overload as not being part of the branch circuit.
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Funny how if you remove them how they interrupt the circuit and the motor doesn't work though ;)
 
The NEC requires branch circuit wiring to be a minimum of 14A using #14AWG conductors. Motor starter and contactors do not have a minimum rating, the NEC simply requires them to be able to handle the motor current shown in the tables.


Edit: oops 15A minimum.
 
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jim dungar said:
The NEC requires branch circuit wiring to be a minimum of 14A using #14AWG conductors. Motor starter and contactors do not have a minimum rating, the NEC simply requires them to be able to handle the motor current shown in the tables.
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Is a receptacle in the circuit count as part of the branch circuit?

Keep in mind many the general GFCI protection rules are in art "210 Branch Circuits".
 
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