9 service disconnects?

[jaggedben]

230.71(B) permits me to have up to six means of disconnect for each of the meters. ...

The NEC attaches no such significance to meters. You have one service.

 

[kwired]

I'm surprised at the overthinking here. It's a code violation. You're allowed six service disconnects. You have nine.

Picture in post 4 has 24 disconnects, but only six on each occupancy or group of occupancies. I think OP is wanting to do something similar, which I think is code compliant, but the point he can connect the supply conductor to what is being added is maybe questionable.

 

[Hv&Lv]

The NEC attaches no such significance to meters. You have one service.

It does if the meter is the service point

 

[GoldDigger]

The situation on the ground may vary depending on where the utility defines their "service point".
But IMHO once it has left utility-controlled wiring it triggers the need for 6 or fewer OCPD/disconnects.
It seems to me that the utility could require the customer to provide all of the gutters, etc, and then they put in or specify the conductors and taps to the meters.
I do not think most POCOs would be OK with non-sealed gutter access to unmetered conductors.

 

[JasonCo]

Looking into my POCOs Service Standard book. The Tap Box and conductors will be owned and maintained by the owner. Although it must be lockable and can accept a utility company lock. So the service point would be at the meters, according to @GoldDigger. 9 services...?

 

[kwired]

It does if the meter is the service point

Service point is nothing more than where POCO ends and NEC kicks in. Yes it could be at a meter, it can also be line side or load side terminals of said meter, could be the point of connection to overhead drop, could be at terminals in the transformer. I run into a little of all those depending on circumstances.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Service point is nothing more than where POCO ends and NEC kicks in. Yes it could be at a meter, it can also be line side or load side terminals of said meter, could be the point of connection to overhead drop, could be at terminals in the transformer. I run into a little of all those depending on circumstances.

I realize that. I was commenting on a post.
I work for a utility. We determine the service point.

 

[jaggedben]

@JasonCo
If you are doing the wiring between the tap box and the meters and you are not working for the utility then the meters are by definition not the service point.

I have never seen a multi-meter installation where the meters are the service point(s), although things may vary regionally.

In addition, you are only allowed one service per buidling, so if it were the case that you had 9 services, that would be a different violation. (Exceptions that would allow more than one service don't apply here.)

 

[kwired]

I realize that. I was commenting on a post.
I work for a utility. We determine the service point.

Bottom line is a POCO sort of has separate definition for service Than NEC has - and even that definition can depend if you are talking about installation design or about outages and/or billing.

I have for long time laughed at NEC requiring us to label service disconnecting means as "service disconnect". It means nothing to anyone except those that know code. Better off for some owners/users to label it "this shuts everything off" "no equipment ground" labels required where receptacles permitted to not have an EGC, is also another one of those rules that means nothing other than to those that know code. In fact some maybe assume it means something completely different than what it does mean.

 

[JasonCo]

Can I go back to just confirm the question I had earlier. The answer was unclear to me. If the service lateral goes to the building and stubs up out of the ground and the first thing it hits is a disconnect, THEN it hits the tap box and branches off to 20 different meters and disconnects all grouped together. This service only has 1 service disconnect and just for argument sake, it doesn't violate the 6 disconnect per service rule. Seeing how there is 1 disconnect. Just for learning purposes, not saying that's what I would do.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The NEC attaches no such significance to meters. You have one service.

Please read 230.40 Exception #1 and then read 230.71(A) in the 2017 code or 230.71(B) in the 2020 code.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Can I go back to just confirm the question I had earlier. The answer was unclear to me. If the service lateral goes to the building and stubs up out of the ground and the first thing it hits is a disconnect, THEN it hits the tap box and branches off to 20 different meters and disconnects all grouped together. This service only has 1 service disconnect and just for argument sake, it doesn't violate the 6 disconnect per service rule. Seeing how there is 1 disconnect. Just for learning purposes, not saying that's what I would do.

You can do that, and if you do that and you are correct, in that case you have just one service disconnect. Everything on the load side of that single service disconnect are feeder conductors. The tap rules in 240.21(B) will apply to the conductors from the load side of the service disconnect to the disconnects at each meter for that application.

 

[kwired]

Can I go back to just confirm the question I had earlier. The answer was unclear to me. If the service lateral goes to the building and stubs up out of the ground and the first thing it hits is a disconnect, THEN it hits the tap box and branches off to 20 different meters and disconnects all grouped together. This service only has 1 service disconnect and just for argument sake, it doesn't violate the 6 disconnect per service rule. Seeing how there is 1 disconnect. Just for learning purposes, not saying that's what I would do.

If first thing it hits is a "service disconnecting means", which must have switch and overcurrent protection, then everything on load side is no longer service conductors but is either feeders or branch circuits.

Exactly what you have often in larger multifamily - a service disconnect either integral or ahead of a meter center. Disconnect at each meter is not service disconnect it is a feeder breaker.

 

[JasonCo]

You can do that, and if you do that and you are correct, in that case you have just one service disconnect. Everything on the load side of that single service disconnect are feeder conductors. The tap rules in 240.21(B) will apply to the conductors from the load side of the service disconnect to the disconnects at each meter for that application.

Okay thank you. That does solve my 9 disconnect problem I'm having. Only problem is that this is a 480 service and the disconnect would be over 1000A, meaning the disconnect would have to be GFCI protected, which I'm assuming is going to be way out of budget to add that. I would need to find another solution.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I think he is fine with original sketch other than he likely needs to run the supply to the pole and not the tap box. He will then end up with two groups of six or less disconnects, and like I said the meters mean almost nothing in determining what is a service, it is the service disconnecting means that determine that. Is possible to have more than one disconnect per meter - they all count.

That would really depend on what the local AHJ considers a group. I am sure that there are some AHJs that will see this as 9 service disconnects in a single group and others will see a group of 3 service disconnects and a second group of 6 service disconnects.

As far as the meters, those along with Exception #1 to 230.40, is what lets you end up with more than six service disconnect as each meter is permitted to have its own set of service entrance conductors and each set of service entrance conductors is permitted to have up to six service disconnects.

 

[JasonCo]

Hmm, I have (6) 100A meters/disconnects, (1) 400A Panel with Main and 320 meter, (1) 200A Panel with Main and meter, lastly (1) meter/house panel with main.

I could add a 600A disconnect for the (6) 100A meters/disconnects. Making it so I would only have 4 disconnects for this service.

 

[JasonCo]

That would really depend on what the local AHJ considers a group. I am sure that there are some AHJs that will see this as 9 service disconnects in a single group and others will see a group of 3 service disconnects and a second group of 6 service disconnects.

As far as the meters, those along with Exception #1 to 230.40, is what lets you end up with more than six service disconnect as each meter is permitted to have its own set of service entrance conductors and each set of service entrance conductors is permitted to have up to six service disconnects.

Wouldn't this still violate code. The service lateral hits more than 6 disconnects, regardless of the 3 "possibly" being separated in a different group.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Wouldn't this still violate code. The service lateral hits more than 6 disconnects, regardless of the 3 "possibly" being separated in a different group.

Each occupancy is permitted to have its own set of service entrance conductors by Exception #1 to 230.40 and each set of service entrance conductors is permitted to have up to sex service disconnects by 230.71. It is my opinion, that in almost alll cases, the reason for multiple meters is that there are multiple occupancies.

In the 2017 code 230.71 says that " There shall be not more than six sets of disconnects per service grouped in any one location." That triggers the discussion as to what "grouped in any one location" actually means. That language does not appear in the 2020 code.

Below is the 2017 code language

230.71(A) General. The service disconnecting means for each service permitted by 230.2, or for each set of service-entrance conductors permitted by 230.40, Exception No. 1, 3, 4, or 5, shall consist of not more than six switches or sets of circuit breakers, or a combination of not more than six switches and sets of circuit breakers, mounted in a single enclosure, in a group of separate enclosures, or in or on a switchboard or in switchgear. There shall be not more than six sets of disconnects per service grouped in any one location.

 

[kwired]

That would really depend on what the local AHJ considers a group. I am sure that there are some AHJs that will see this as 9 service disconnects in a single group and others will see a group of 3 service disconnects and a second group of 6 service disconnects.

As far as the meters, those along with Exception #1 to 230.40, is what lets you end up with more than six service disconnect as each meter is permitted to have its own set of service entrance conductors and each set of service entrance conductors is permitted to have up to six service disconnects.

Drawing in post 1, though nice drawing maybe not so representative of what will actually be there, guessing scale and other details might make a difference.

If it ends up looking more like drawing in post 3 (or 4?), I'd say there is definitely separate groups there.

 

[JasonCo]

Not to stir things up, I just want to clarify why or if there is some sort of contradictory statements, maybe based off a gray area in the code?

Is post #19 by @jaggedben incorrect or just depends on how you interpret something in the book?

I'm surprised at the overthinking here. It's a code violation. You're allowed six service disconnects. You have nine.