Add a lug - live or dead...

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e57 said:
Alright, define the LAW.... And legality... This is a highrise building, not exactly the easiest thing to shut off without debate about the safety involved in just doing that.... But it can be done with a near act of congress - which for those who know me, I fear not... But that leaves the whole bulding on the dark, where i need to work, and possibly a neighborhood off.... Shutting off the feeder, not a big deal - this is residential, the inconvenience of these people by making them reset their clock.... I could care less about that.... It is the 'act of' shutting off the feeder. THAT is what I find worrisome. The phrase, "not with a ten foot pole" comes to mind... Get it? Or should I bother worrying about that?
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Chicken switch comes to mind.
 
e57 said:
Let's put aside the legal debate threadjack please. I'm a manager at a company, but often looks at situations as if "I had to do it", because in some situations I will... I look at assigning no one to something I won't do myself.I'm not sure why, but I feel more apprehensive about that switch, than I do about adding the lugs live. As crazy as that sounds.... Let's stick to the calculation of risk assessment aspect.Is it unfounded? Or, more risky to shut it off, than just doing the work hot?
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Yes, lets stick to the risk assesment. You have yet to mention what the incident energy is for this switch, and if you don't know that how can you possibly wear the right PPE to protect you even if you could justify doing this live?? You mentioned an engineer was calculating the AIC, which is not somehting you calculate and shows a gross misunderstanding of what you are getting yourself into here.

And, as mentioned already, these switches have very high failure rates when not maintained even for a few years, let alone as long as this one has been neglected.

You claim to be a manager and somehow don't think you need to follow OSHA rules, let alone 70E, but keep in mind the 70E is written by insurance companies, you know the ones your widow will be fighting for your benifits if something happens. lots of people get so hung up on "the law" but fail to see the big picture here. When you are laying in that burn unit and they start to lower you into the debreeding tubs as you hear the screams of other burn victims, who cares what the law says? Ever been in a burn unit? I have.
 
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Zog, well aware of the differences of incident energy, and AIC, just mentioned it as a point of fact that the fault currents are unknown. But those, much like the incident energy of locations on this circuit will also differ, and unknown at the moment.

Trust me I'm not seeking to do it live, but again - is the act of shutting it off an equal or greater hazard? That is the question here. Please consider the switch used to do so? And I'm dumb enough to question it am I not?

I could ask just about any of the guys on the crew to operate that switch, the one that I am apprehensive about.... But that - in of itself would be a disservice to them would it not? Since the last time I saw a switch like it in was in someone's hand walking down the hall, asking if someone had a plan B...

Thanks for the link, I had already sent them an email earlier today....
 
is it possible to slip some non conductive pads between the buss to safe the system off?

Otherwise Turn it off it aint worth the hazard. I have seen a boss of mine weld a buss bar and melt the end off a ratchet.
 
OK, let's forget any mention of live work, politics of being self-employed and your mom jokes. (which is not an invitation for your mom or her jokes)

The method of shutting this off, is that 50 year old switch. Would you just walk up and pull that handle?
 
Sierrasparky said:
is it possible to slip some non conductive pads between the buss to safe the system off?

Otherwise Turn it off it aint worth the hazard. I have seen a boss of mine weld a buss bar and melt the end off a ratchet.
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Oh I have a set of rubber blankets I used to cover busses and a thick one to stand on, while doing something like this, as well as insulated wrench's and a ratchet that has about 4 layers of heat shrink on the handle (yea I know its not UL listed) But don't tell anyone:ashamed:

E57 I saw onetime where a co-worker took a 10' pipe with a 90? and drilled holes in it to match the bolt holes in the disconnect shaft, and he removed the handle and bolted this 10' extension pipe to the shaft and put the bolts in it so he could be back away from an old switch that had to be turned back on, also he had a piece of 3/4" plywood he crouched down behind just for a little added protection, but luckily it turned back on with no problems, but I know in some of these power rooms it can still be scary as there is nowhere to run even if you could.

I watch (at a distance) linemen all the time connect or disconnect taps in pad mounted transformers and I have yet to see one shut down a transformer when doing this, talk about being at a point in a system with a high AIC? but them linemen are supermen just ask them?:roll:

All I can say is that you and only you are the person that can chose too or not too take a risk like this, and if something goes wrong will have to bare the responsibilities of the results,
 
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Volta said:
Ok, so do tell.

From the OSHA site:



OSHA does not need to refer to any particular practice, standard, or regulation. The general duty clause of ~provide a safe workplace~ is sufficient to require the employer to use some means of providing reasonable safety. It doesn't have to be NFPA 70E, but unless some other fairly comprehensive plan is used, and can be demonstrated to be reasonable, all OSHA has to do is point at 70E and say, "that industry standard exists, why didn't you use it?"

Especially seeing as they were the main driving force behind that particular book . . . :roll:

But anyhow, can you show us where OSHA says employees with no more than 8 coworkers aren't covered?
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I apologize, if that is the case, I am mixing OSHA up with something else.
 
I will say that OSHA definitely applies their requirements and rules differently to every industry, as I was seeking a job in a large steel mil here I got a chance to speak with one of the OSHA enforcement officers who over looks this mill, and was surprised in some of the answers I got as to PPE's and the marking of panels and equipment for arc flash evaluation, and working equipment live, it seems that these rules are relaxed to some effect as they don't require hot work permits or arc flash labeling, and since there are many open busses all over the place you are working in and around live equipment all the time, it is a different world in there.
 
hurk27 said:
E57 I saw onetime where a co-worker took a 10' pipe with a 90? and drilled holes in it to match the bolt holes in the disconnect shaft, and he removed the handle and bolted this 10' extension pipe to the shaft and put the bolts in it so he could be back away from an old switch that had to be turned back on, also he had a piece of 3/4" plywood he crouched down behind just for a little added protection, but luckily it turned back on with no problems, but I know in some of these power rooms it can still be scary as there is nowhere to run even if you could.
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FWIW I have always been under the understanding that thats was where the metaphor "not (even) with a 10' pole" came from... (although the all seeing all knowing Internet would differ) But I have always thought it to be a reference of the hot stick.

If that switch were set up to do that I certainly would. As I really don't want to be near it if does have an issue.
 
e57 said:
OK, let's forget any mention of live work, politics of being self-employed and your mom jokes. (which is not an invitation for your mom or her jokes)

The method of shutting this off, is that 50 year old switch. Would you just walk up and pull that handle?
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Often a switch like this wil have a shunt trip, if it does you may be able to trip it remotely by pushing a test button (A GFPE panel for example). Otherwise Arc Safe has a wireless remote actuator for this.
 
weressl said:
I apologize, if that is the case, I am mixing OSHA up with something else.
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I think you were mixing it up with OSHA's recordkeeping standard. OSHA says a employeer does not need to maintain a injury/illness log (OSHA 300) if they have less then 10 employees.

1904.1(a)(1)
If your company had ten (10) or fewer employees at all times during the last calendar year, you do not need to keep OSHA injury and illness records unless OSHA or the BLS informs you in writing that you must keep records under ? 1904.41 or ? 1904.42. However, as required by ? 1904.39, all employers covered by the OSH Act must report to OSHA any workplace incident that results in a fatality or the hospitalization of three or more employees.
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I can feel for you on your decision. I personally would not work it hot and would try to make turning off the Pringle switch as safe as possible.

We have numerous Pringle switches and one in particular had a problem where the handle opened but the blades stuck and did not disengage leaving the load side engergized. Lubrication and rework has it operating today. Please verify the blades are open even if the handle moves to the open position.
 
This is turning into quite an ordeal just to add a few lugs. Hopefully you can use your powers of persuasion to convince the building super it's in their best interest to schedule a shutdown for preventative maintenance at the same time. Good luck, I know you've got a tough road ahead.

I come across similar stuff(on a smaller scale) all the time, it's always "do this little thing for me" turns into "this is rats nest I'm not touching unless I fix it ALL and believe me it won't be cheap. Now do you still want me to do it?"
 
Given the circumstances of the work to be done, age and condition of the gear, does one really need OSHA to tell them that de-energized is the way to go here? Sometimes common sense is all that's neccessary. I sure as hell don't want to work for, with or near the guy that wants to work this job live.
 
sii said:
Given the circumstances of the work to be done, age and condition of the gear, does one really need OSHA to tell them that de-energized is the way to go here? Sometimes common sense is all that's neccessary. I sure as hell don't want to work for, with or near the guy that wants to work this job live.
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You - like many others have gone on the banter road about 'live work' and escape the fact that the possibility of injury or death may be greater in operating the switch that would allow the 'electrically safe working condition'... It is not that I WANT to do it live, nor would I ask YOU to do it, it is that the unknown condition of an old hardly maintained deadfront switch may be the greater threat than the open live buswork. Get the paradox?

Trust me I would love to go kill it - but without killing or maiming myself in the process. One has a fuse clearing time of unknown value (but it has one...) way up in a building, the other has no clearing time except the equipment or transformer failure and much closer to the source one floor below. Am I saying that to justify working live - NO. If you loose focus on what you're doing adding a lug - you could get hurt. If that switch blows - you are dead. Currently I'm looking into remote switching of it, as it may be the only safe way to go in this case... I have that little faith in something that has not been touched for longer than I have been alive - and that I can not physically see to assess. (Like getting on the freeway in a 63 Dodge that no one has touched the break peddle on since it was built)
 
e57 said:
You - like many others have gone on the banter road about 'live work' and escape the fact that the possibility of injury or death may be greater in operating the switch that would allow the 'electrically safe working condition'... It is not that I WANT to do it live, nor would I ask YOU to do it, it is that the unknown condition of an old hardly maintained deadfront switch may be the greater threat than the open live buswork. Get the paradox?

Trust me I would love to go kill it - but without killing or maiming myself in the process. One has a fuse clearing time of unknown value (but it has one...) way up in a building, the other has no clearing time except the equipment or transformer failure and much closer to the source one floor below. Am I saying that to justify working live - NO. If you loose focus on what you're doing adding a lug - you could get hurt. If that switch blows - you are dead. Currently I'm looking into remote switching of it, as it may be the only safe way to go in this case... I have that little faith in something that has not been touched for longer than I have been alive - and that I can not physically see to assess. (Like getting on the freeway in a 63 Dodge that no one has touched the break peddle on since it was built)
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This is the whole reason remote racking and switching was invented, to keep you out of the blast zone, this makes it no longer an excuse to work it hot.
 
e57 said:
You - like many others have gone on the banter road about 'live work' and escape the fact that the possibility of injury or death may be greater in operating the switch that would allow the 'electrically safe working condition'.
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I would say you are escaping the fact you came here asking for opinions and you are getting them.

To me the obvious solution is turn it off further up stream no mater how much trouble that may be.

But if you do not value your life that much go ahead and roll the dice.
 
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