Adding an electric car charger to a 100 amp panel?

[zbang]

I agree it would be better, but customers don’t go for it when you give them both options.

Depends on how you sell the work.

A new service would be double or triple the cost of one of those devices.

And sometimes, that's the price of having an electric car.

In the OP’s situation the feed to the meter base, the meter base, the feed to the panel and the panel would need to be replaced. Huge difference.

The OP isn't the only one reading this thread.

Also if many of the occupants in the community started increasing their service size, the supply from Toronto Hydro might not be enough supply them.

That's usually the PoCo's problem.

 

[Eddy_Current]

Now I remember why I don’t come to this site much. Lol

 

[suemarkp]

Easy solution is to add an EVEMS. These devices will not allow the car to charge if too much power is being used in the dwelling. They are not cheap, ($1000 loonies) but cheaper and easier than upgrading the service. Here is a link to one

Common one used in Ontario

Great solution. Didn't know these existed.

 

[Eddy_Current]

Great solution. Didn't know these existed.

They can’t keep them on the shelves at the supplier.

 

[ramsy]

Easy solution is to add an EVEMS. These devices will not allow the car to charge if too much power is being used in the dwelling. They are not cheap, ($1000 loonies) but cheaper and easier than upgrading the service. Here is a link to one

Common one used in Ontario

Wow. Nice solution when tenant-electrical service is close to vehicle parking.

If the condos have an lower or basement level garage, consider installing an electrical service just for EV charging. Submetering is easily done for each tennant space. Add in a surcharge for the overhead costs

Perhaps best for parking garages located far away from tenant dwellings.

 

[Eddy_Current]

Wow. Nice solution when tenant-electrical service is close to vehicle parking.


Perhaps best for parking garages located far away from tenant dwellings.

?? This gets installed right at the panel. Instead of the circuit for the charger coming from the panel, you install this device and feed the car charger from it. Doesn’t matter how far the service is from the parking spot.

 

[wwhitney]

The downside is that it's all or nothing for the EVSE circuit. A solution integrated into the EVSE could throttle the charge rate as required, rather than just cutting off charging. That would require running CT wires or other communications wires between the EVSE and the originating feeder/panel. So this solution is a bit simpler.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Tanercairns]

We have been doing EV charging installs for close to 10 year now and the best EVEMS I have found is from Black Box Innovations. Not as well known as DCC but its less expensive, way smaller for tight panels areas, and faster to install. You can buy them from a few electrical wholesaler or right off their website

 

[drcampbell]

When the project progresses beyond foreseeable-but-still-hypothetical status, it might be worthwhile to bring a professional engineer onto the site for a survey & evaluation. A P.Eng will bring a broader view of the project than an electrician.

It will probably be important to know whether your services are 120/240 or 120/208 volts.

We sometimes get into the habit of talking to ourselves with our own argot. Twins and quads are circuit breakers that contain two breakers in a single-size case, or four circuit-breaker poles in a double-size case. They can be used to add more circuits to a panel, but do not increase the panel's total power or current capacity.

 

[petersonra]

I think if any significant number of people in existing apartment and condo complexes decide to get electric vehicles, it is going to be a nightmare. The apartment owners are not going to pay for the upgrades needed, and in many cases the only power in parking areas is house power and there is no way the apartment owner is going to want to allow tenants to use that power to charge their vehicles.

Many times condo associations are about as cheap as you can get, and the association is not going to want to force costs unto everyone to satisfy a handful of owners.

Saying it is a poco problem does not mean the poco is going to pay for any required upgrades. Most places this is going to come out of the owner's back pocket, one way or the other.

 

[Seekthetruth]

For what it's worth...I recently had a brief conversation with an ESA inspector on this very subject. He said that one of the prerequisites for pulling a permit to install a charger is that a 200A service is in place. People have had too many power problems when charging anytime other than overnight. even then, some people have issues ie electric furnace on cold nights running at the same time. As for underpowered community transformers...my town has already begun experiencing this. I won't be surprised if somehow municipalities get involved in the installation process.

Isn't this considered a continuous load?

 

[Newsletter Writer]

The real question, "is a dedicated Meter for the electric car needed for energy credits & rebates", and if consumers want those credits. If adding another meter center for car charger energy credit, it will come with its own 2-pole breaker disconnect for the car charger.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no program in Canada that provides rebates for electrical vehicle charging.

I am certain that there is no such program in the province of Ontario.

 

[ramsy]

To the best of my knowledge, there is no program in Canada that provides rebates for electrical vehicle charging.

I am certain that there is no such program in the province of Ontario.

In the States, the dedicated-meter rebates are thru utility and local building-department partnerships, until they realize the incentive doesn't result in newfound patronage for permits & inspections. Particularly not among residential-home owners, and ethnic subcultures inherently motivated to avoid the corrupt governments they fled.

State & Federal level incentives might be carpool lane access, and income-tax deductions for clean vehicles, tied to vehicle registrations, rather than dedicated metering.

 

[Arester]

With some luck your condo may have those smart meters and you can pull down some load data from utility. (See picture below) We tend to overestimate our actual energy consumption.

Back in 2016 I pulled my annual, by the hour, load profile, for a 1700 SF single house (Very efficient AC, NG heating, quite a few LED bulbs, home cooked dinners most of the time.)
On the hottest day in July my peak (1 hour window was 5.69 kWh) see below.
I do not see why I would not be able to add a 40A/240V or even 60A/240V charger.
Since I paid for that 100A service I do not see how someone can tell me to not use it to full capacity. If I were to install the 60A (which never draws 60A for long) I would be careful not to run it on the hottest day. If I went overboard the breaker will teach me a lesson anyhow – hopefully not during hokey game.
I would not be concern about the Utility transformer as utilities do monitor the load (hopefully) and in most cases would just swap the transformer for a larger one if needed. After all they do make money selling electricity – the more the better.

 

[Tanercairns]

We use an EVEMS (I think the Americans call it a ALMS) made by Black Box Innovations. It is a bit less then the other ones and smaller too. They have a cool electrical load calculator for Canadians on the website as well so you can see if you will need one. I would say more then half our installs need one of these so we keep a couple on hand. Hope it helps someone.
www.blackbox-in.com

 

[hillbilly1]

When the project progresses beyond foreseeable-but-still-hypothetical status, it might be worthwhile to bring a professional engineer onto the site for a survey & evaluation. A P.Eng will bring a broader view of the project than an electrician.

It will probably be important to know whether your services are 120/240 or 120/208 volts.

We sometimes get into the habit of talking to ourselves with our own argot. Twins and quads are circuit breakers that contain two breakers in a single-size case, or four circuit-breaker poles in a double-size case. They can be used to add more circuits to a panel, but do not increase the panel's total power or current capacity.

If the panel is listed for them…….

 

[retirede]

If the panel is listed for them…….

The only thing that goes in the panel are 2 CTs. Does that require a panel-specific listing?

 

[hillbilly1]

The only thing that goes in the panel are 2 CTs. Does that require a panel-specific listing?

? The tandem breakers, you cannot use them if the panel is not listed for them. Didn’t see anything in DR’s post that said anything about CT’s?

 

[retirede]

? The tandem breakers, you cannot use them if the panel is not listed for them. Didn’t see anything in DR’s post that said anything about CT’s?

Here’s my understanding of how it works based on reading data sheets in the link:
This device is wired from an regular breaker in the panel just like any other load. The EVSE is connected to it. This device simply shuts off the EVSE based on the load on the service.

I don’t think he mentioned tandem breakers, either!

 

[hillbilly1]

When the project progresses beyond foreseeable-but-still-hypothetical status, it might be worthwhile to bring a professional engineer onto the site for a survey & evaluation. A P.Eng will bring a broader view of the project than an electrician.

It will probably be important to know whether your services are 120/240 or 120/208 volts.

We sometimes get into the habit of talking to ourselves with our own argot. Twins and quads are circuit breakers that contain two breakers in a single-size case, or four circuit-breaker poles in a double-size case. They can be used to add more circuits to a panel, but do not increase the panel's total power or current capacity.

Let’s try this again, I’m seeing tandem breakers in pictures attached, and he is talking about tandems in the text. Or is something screwy going on? No where is it mentioned in that post about the the load shed device that was mentioned in another post.