They added two bedrooms and a bathroom. Where going to install a sub panel for it. The footing has a ufer there for grounding. I was going to run a feeder cable with a ground, from the main to the sub panel. Now what do I do with the footing ufer? Do I run a GEC from the main to it? I know your suppose to utilize it if it's there. Thank you for your help.
Addition to existing house
- Thread starter zappy
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Jim W in Tampa
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa Florida
I would run it to what ever panel was closer,should make no differance as it is just an additional ground. I do question why you would waste a sub panel. 1 circuit 12-2 for bath receptacle and lights and another for the 2 bedrooms
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
GEC is only needed for services or at load end of feeders supplying separate buildings, or separately derived systems. It is not needed for a subpanel in the same building. You could choose to run the ufer to the existing service if you wish but there is no requirement to do so. It is likely a better electrode than what you have unless you already have a UFER or water pipe electrode.
What the customer want's, is what he gets.
Jim W in Tampa
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa Florida
I agree if it is his idea no matter how stupid it is. I was just puzzled why you would do that.
Could be 1 issue in that it might not be able to be smaller than #6 for your grounding conductor in the feed back to panel if you install ufer to the sub.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
250.52(a)(3)
If the cee in question is the only CEE then it must be part of the grounding electrode system and run to the service or tap to the GEC. Meaning it can't be run to the sub panel. If there is already a CEE connected to GES then you can connect additional CEE's to any EGC at any point.
hope I didn't mix up any acronyms
If the cee in question is the only CEE then it must be part of the grounding electrode system and run to the service or tap to the GEC. Meaning it can't be run to the sub panel. If there is already a CEE connected to GES then you can connect additional CEE's to any EGC at any point.
hope I didn't mix up any acronyms
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jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
To the first disconnect. OR
Do any of the conditions in 250.64(F) help you?
Do any of the conditions in 250.64(F) help you?
Can't agree...
250.50 requires it to be bonded if present. It was not present when the service was installed.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
It may not be a code violation in this situation but which way would be the better install.
What if the only electrode on the existing service is a single ground rod. The OP has added a CEE which most likely has less resistance than the ground rod. Now lets say he ties it to the sub panel. Maybe the sub panel is fed by a 60 amp feeder and only has a #10 EGC. That #10 whether intended or not will be serving as a GEC to the CEE that if ran to the service would be required to be at least #8 and possibly up to #4.
If a new service is ever put in it will then be required to be brought to the service if it is there, why not bring it there now.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
It is required now. 250.50
Residential Code.
"115.5 Alterations to systems, components and materials.
Alterations to an existing system (egress, fire protection, mechanical, plumbing, etc.) and materials or building components not otherwise provided for in this section shall conform to that required for new construction to the extent of the alteration. The existing systems, materials or components shall not be required to comply with all of the requirements of this code for new construction except to the extent that they are affected by the alteration. Additions or alterations to existing systems materials or components shall not cause them to become unsafe, hazardous, overloaded or become less effective than when originally installed, constructed and/or approved."
dana1028
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco Bay area
I agree not to agree with you. I know of several municipalities in my area that require you to tie the new CEE [where none existed before] to the service.
The AHJ interprets 250.50 as 'where present'....a new CEE = 'now present' and is is required.
That's the code section and the AHJ has the authority to interpret. I personally don't disagree with him [them].
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Smart where does it say where present when the service was installed.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
If you're not touching the service why would you need to add the CEE?
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Adding a 'sub' wouldn't qualify as touching the "service"?
Be careful Dennis and I rarely agree. This could be a long thread.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
I don't know but the code doesn't say only if you are working on the service. It says you must use every available electrode...so???
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Not in my book. Would a subpanel require that the entire place be brought up to the present code?
dana1028
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco Bay area
In earthquake country rebar is required in the foundation; once you install #4 at the bottom of a new foundation you have a CEE... = 'now present'.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Again what does touching the service have to do with a CEE and an addition. I don't see anywhere in the code that exempts the new CEE from being wired to an existing service.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
NO.
Let me try a simple example.
I add a new bedroom circuit. AFCIs?
I add a bathroom. GFCI?
I add an electrode. Do I have to connect it?
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
That is not out of the NEC and does not apply to me and many others. NEC is only code here and the number of amendments can be counted on one hand (even if it is missing four of its fingers).
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