Additional Ground Rod

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
I'm having the same issues as well I did a job where we needed to upgrade a panel to install a branch ckts for an electric dryer. The set up is as follows it's a two unit building so two meters two panels each panel is a main breaker this being two service switches. Water main ground is terminated in one panel not the other here in NYC are the violations I received.

I also agree ground rod not required.
Also my arfuyin regard to grouping is I did not touch branch ckts wiring. Same for common Trip. Inspectors are ridiculous here

I also used an existing penitration that's about 8' round in the basement celling that he says I need to "fire stop" . For this I would need hire. Sheetrock crew
Also an I required to provide a directory if I'm jsut upgrading panel?

Wondering everyone's thoughts. How far can inspectors go
Besides what you've mentioned about the firestop what on the list do you find to be ridiculous?
 

ptonsparky

Senior Member
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I'm having the same issues as well I did a job where we needed to upgrade a panel to install a branch ckts for an electric dryer. The set up is as follows it's a two unit building so two meters two panels each panel is a main breaker this being two service switches. Water main ground is terminated in one panel not the other here in NYC are the violations I received.

I also agree ground rod not required.
Also my arfuyin regard to grouping is I did not touch branch ckts wiring. Same for common Trip. Inspectors are ridiculous here

I also used an existing penitration that's about 8' round in the basement celling that he says I need to "fire stop" . For this I would need hire. Sheetrock crew
Also an I required to provide a directory if I'm jsut upgrading panel?

Wondering everyone's thoughts. How far can inspectors go


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He has stated the Articles he feels you have violated. That is as good as it gets.
We do upgrade the directory along with the panel.
 

nickelec

Senior Member
Location
US
Pretty much all of it. I attached a pic

If the panel wasn't labelled before I took it out I feel. Shouldn't be responsible to label it if I'm jsut swapping it

Also shouldn't be responsible for grouping conductors in order for me to do that the right way I would have to go through the whole apartment and trace out what neutral belongs to what hot etc.

I don't know I'm on the fence about the grounding I don't feel like I need to redo all the Grouding in order to ground both panel.

The existing set up is the water main ground terminates to neutral bar in the panel on the right that we didn't change


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petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I don't see anything that is crazy there. He either is just being thorough or is looking for a payoff. if it was Chicago I would know which it is. Don't know how crooked the inspectors are in NYC.
 

nickelec

Senior Member
Location
US
He's not looking for a payoff there just uneducated , they take a civil service test and get the job

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infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Pretty much all of it. I attached a pic

If the panel wasn't labelled before I took it out I feel. Shouldn't be responsible to label it if I'm jsut swapping it

Also shouldn't be responsible for grouping conductors in order for me to do that the right way I would have to go through the whole apartment and trace out what neutral belongs to what hot etc.

I don't know I'm on the fence about the grounding I don't feel like I need to redo all the Grouding in order to ground both panel.

The existing set up is the water main ground terminates to neutral bar in the panel on the right that we didn't change
Around here just about every one of those violations would be applicable. Change out a panel and do not provide a directory is a red sticker every time. On service upgrades it may take an hour or two for two men to go through the place and determine which circuits go where, all part of the job.
 

nickelec

Senior Member
Location
US
Maybe I can wrap my head around that but I cannot wrap my head around the grouping fact the fire stopping updating the whole grounding system etc

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nickelec

Senior Member
Location
US
Well gets me and I put in all the time and effort and years to get my license and actually understand the code and its purpose and it's uses these guys just look at a checklist and don't have any idea what they are talking about

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petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Well gets me and I put in all the time and effort and years to get my license and actually understand the code and its purpose and it's uses these guys just look at a checklist and don't have any idea what they are talking about

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Check lists are good for making sure you don't miss something. I don't have an issue with using them.

The purpose of the code started out with good intentions but over time it has become something else. Pretty much the way just about everything government entities do.
 

suemarkp

Senior Member
Location
Kent, WA
Occupation
Engineer
Well gets me and I put in all the time and effort and years to get my license and actually understand the code and its purpose and it's uses these guys just look at a checklist and don't have any idea what they are talking about
To me, you changed out a panel. That requires it to meet the current code for grounding and the rules are not much different than the rules 30 years ago when it comes to grouped services. The water pipe by itself is not sufficient. Do you have a UFER or some other electrode? If not you need 2 rods (or proof that one rod is 25 ohms or less). The panel you replaced should have a panel schedule for all circuits -- should have put some time in your bid to trace the circuits out and label them. Should take maybe an hour tops?? Are there overcurrent devices that are oversized for the conductors? If that is in the panel you touched, I'd say yes you should fix that. If in the one you didn't touch, then I'd say not in scope of your permit and job. You ran something through the non-firestopped hole, then you should close it off.

I changed out a panel in a metal pool shed. It had one ground rod. Inspector wanted two, and since it couldn't prove it was 25 ohms or less I drove another one. I don't think it is going to make any difference, but the code is what it is. Inspector wanted the metal shed bonded. It was never bonded to the old panel, but again he is correct so I did it. Those were both existing problems, but there is an expectation to fix code bonding, ground, overcurrent, and labeling violations if you replace a panel. I even put double pole breakers on multiwire branch circuits if they were singles beforehand. Some of the more egregious things I fixed without any coercion, like the underground aluminum SE cable feeding a pool panel with no separate EGC.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I changed out a panel in a metal pool shed. It had one ground rod. Inspector wanted two, and since it couldn't prove it was 25 ohms or less I drove another one. I don't think it is going to make any difference, but the code is what it is. Inspector wanted the metal shed bonded. It was never bonded to the old panel, but again he is correct so I did it. Those were both existing problems, but there is an expectation to fix code bonding, ground, overcurrent, and labeling violations if you replace a panel. I even put double pole breakers on multiwire branch circuits if they were singles beforehand. Some of the more egregious things I fixed without any coercion, like the underground aluminum SE cable feeding a pool panel with no separate EGC.
I'm all for fixing stuff like that . . . but not free, except maybe for some simple stuff.

IMO, the customer should be made aware of such existing violations and the inspector's required remedies.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Pretty much all of it. I attached a pic

If the panel wasn't labelled before I took it out I feel. Shouldn't be responsible to label it if I'm jsut swapping it

Also shouldn't be responsible for grouping conductors in order for me to do that the right way I would have to go through the whole apartment and trace out what neutral belongs to what hot etc.

I don't know I'm on the fence about the grounding I don't feel like I need to redo all the Grouding in order to ground both panel.

The existing set up is the water main ground terminates to neutral bar in the panel on the right that we didn't change


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I gotta say, the only one I really sympathize with you on is the grouping conductors. You're more likely to get that partially wrong than 100% right and that could actually be dangerous for the next guy.

The rest all relates to stuff you installed yourself, and it's not hard to do. It just takes some time, and you should know the correct way to do it and make an effort to do it with service changes if that is your business. Around here that is just matter of fact. You charge enough to cover the time you need.

"I leave it as bad as the last guy" is not a motto to live by.
 

nickelec

Senior Member
Location
US
I agree I will do the other stuff I'm just venting . But totally going to fight the grouping

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Malywr

Member
Location
New Jersey USA
Pretty much all of it. I attached a pic

If the panel wasn't labelled before I took it out I feel. Shouldn't be responsible to label it if I'm jsut swapping it

Also shouldn't be responsible for grouping conductors in order for me to do that the right way I would have to go through the whole apartment and trace out what neutral belongs to what hot etc.

I don't know I'm on the fence about the grounding I don't feel like I need to redo all the Grouding in order to ground both panel.

The existing set up is the water main ground terminates to neutral bar in the panel on the right that we didn't change


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I taught if we update panel we have to bring it to existing code
Sometimes it is a pain. Specially when system was old and handyman or HO was working on it before you ...
 

Buck Parrish

Senior Member
Location
NC & IN
We always label the panel. That's a selling point when you are bidding the job.
The neutrals and handle ties with wire in conduit can be a little tricky. But we would just do the obvious ones.

This inspector left you code references. They never do that in most of Indiana. You should see some of the inspectors in Indiana. They just make stuff up that's not even in the code. I've been told by an Indiana inspector that we're on the 09 NEC. :rolleyes:
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I think you have to look at what legal authority The inspector actually has. A lot of times they think they have a lot more authority than they really do. The only authority they have is what is granted them by some law that was passed. It's hard for me to believe that they can make you fix anything they think is wrong with the entire electrical system just because you changed out a panel. There is somewhere in that law a definition of what can be required to be fixed and what cannot. If you change out a panel does that mean that you have to put GFCIs in all the bathrooms if they're not there? What about the missing AFCIs?

Incidentally, I think labeling the CB's is a legit requirement if a PB is changed. If it was a one for one swap you could just copy the labeling across, but you would still have to do it. I am less convinced about some of the other things you mentioned. Presumably they were inspected previously and approved so they should be "grandfathered" in place even if they don't meet today's code.
 
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