Additional Ground Rod

Status
Not open for further replies.
nickelec said:
I'm having the same issues as well I did a job where we needed to upgrade a panel to install a branch ckts for an electric dryer. The set up is as follows it's a two unit building so two meters two panels each panel is a main breaker this being two service switches. Water main ground is terminated in one panel not the other here in NYC are the violations I received.

I also agree ground rod not required.
Also my arfuyin regard to grouping is I did not touch branch ckts wiring. Same for common Trip. Inspectors are ridiculous here

I also used an existing penitration that's about 8' round in the basement celling that he says I need to "fire stop" . For this I would need hire. Sheetrock crew
Also an I required to provide a directory if I'm jsut upgrading panel?

Wondering everyone's thoughts. How far can inspectors go
76c1c06673d8821b7fd1d037591eac0a.jpg
e29a018a0cbd292e995f7f1ae617deed.jpg
c075f3b387e0f69ebc72c6b14b7203bf.jpg
Click to expand...
Besides what you've mentioned about the firestop what on the list do you find to be ridiculous?
 
nickelec said:
I'm having the same issues as well I did a job where we needed to upgrade a panel to install a branch ckts for an electric dryer. The set up is as follows it's a two unit building so two meters two panels each panel is a main breaker this being two service switches. Water main ground is terminated in one panel not the other here in NYC are the violations I received.

I also agree ground rod not required.
Also my arfuyin regard to grouping is I did not touch branch ckts wiring. Same for common Trip. Inspectors are ridiculous here

I also used an existing penitration that's about 8' round in the basement celling that he says I need to "fire stop" . For this I would need hire. Sheetrock crew
Also an I required to provide a directory if I'm jsut upgrading panel?

Wondering everyone's thoughts. How far can inspectors go
76c1c06673d8821b7fd1d037591eac0a.jpg
e29a018a0cbd292e995f7f1ae617deed.jpg
c075f3b387e0f69ebc72c6b14b7203bf.jpg


Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
He has stated the Articles he feels you have violated. That is as good as it gets.
We do upgrade the directory along with the panel.
 
Pretty much all of it. I attached a pic

If the panel wasn't labelled before I took it out I feel. Shouldn't be responsible to label it if I'm jsut swapping it

Also shouldn't be responsible for grouping conductors in order for me to do that the right way I would have to go through the whole apartment and trace out what neutral belongs to what hot etc.

I don't know I'm on the fence about the grounding I don't feel like I need to redo all the Grouding in order to ground both panel.

The existing set up is the water main ground terminates to neutral bar in the panel on the right that we didn't change
cb67f24da68f72f8ac3c6a457b182e5b.jpg


Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
 
I don't see anything that is crazy there. He either is just being thorough or is looking for a payoff. if it was Chicago I would know which it is. Don't know how crooked the inspectors are in NYC.
 
He's not looking for a payoff there just uneducated , they take a civil service test and get the job

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
 
nickelec said:
Pretty much all of it. I attached a pic

If the panel wasn't labelled before I took it out I feel. Shouldn't be responsible to label it if I'm jsut swapping it

Also shouldn't be responsible for grouping conductors in order for me to do that the right way I would have to go through the whole apartment and trace out what neutral belongs to what hot etc.

I don't know I'm on the fence about the grounding I don't feel like I need to redo all the Grouding in order to ground both panel.

The existing set up is the water main ground terminates to neutral bar in the panel on the right that we didn't change
Click to expand...
Around here just about every one of those violations would be applicable. Change out a panel and do not provide a directory is a red sticker every time. On service upgrades it may take an hour or two for two men to go through the place and determine which circuits go where, all part of the job.
 
Maybe I can wrap my head around that but I cannot wrap my head around the grouping fact the fire stopping updating the whole grounding system etc

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
 
Well gets me and I put in all the time and effort and years to get my license and actually understand the code and its purpose and it's uses these guys just look at a checklist and don't have any idea what they are talking about

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
 
nickelec said:
Well gets me and I put in all the time and effort and years to get my license and actually understand the code and its purpose and it's uses these guys just look at a checklist and don't have any idea what they are talking about

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Check lists are good for making sure you don't miss something. I don't have an issue with using them.

The purpose of the code started out with good intentions but over time it has become something else. Pretty much the way just about everything government entities do.
 
nickelec said:
Well gets me and I put in all the time and effort and years to get my license and actually understand the code and its purpose and it's uses these guys just look at a checklist and don't have any idea what they are talking about
Click to expand...
To me, you changed out a panel. That requires it to meet the current code for grounding and the rules are not much different than the rules 30 years ago when it comes to grouped services. The water pipe by itself is not sufficient. Do you have a UFER or some other electrode? If not you need 2 rods (or proof that one rod is 25 ohms or less). The panel you replaced should have a panel schedule for all circuits -- should have put some time in your bid to trace the circuits out and label them. Should take maybe an hour tops?? Are there overcurrent devices that are oversized for the conductors? If that is in the panel you touched, I'd say yes you should fix that. If in the one you didn't touch, then I'd say not in scope of your permit and job. You ran something through the non-firestopped hole, then you should close it off.

I changed out a panel in a metal pool shed. It had one ground rod. Inspector wanted two, and since it couldn't prove it was 25 ohms or less I drove another one. I don't think it is going to make any difference, but the code is what it is. Inspector wanted the metal shed bonded. It was never bonded to the old panel, but again he is correct so I did it. Those were both existing problems, but there is an expectation to fix code bonding, ground, overcurrent, and labeling violations if you replace a panel. I even put double pole breakers on multiwire branch circuits if they were singles beforehand. Some of the more egregious things I fixed without any coercion, like the underground aluminum SE cable feeding a pool panel with no separate EGC.
 
suemarkp said:
I changed out a panel in a metal pool shed. It had one ground rod. Inspector wanted two, and since it couldn't prove it was 25 ohms or less I drove another one. I don't think it is going to make any difference, but the code is what it is. Inspector wanted the metal shed bonded. It was never bonded to the old panel, but again he is correct so I did it. Those were both existing problems, but there is an expectation to fix code bonding, ground, overcurrent, and labeling violations if you replace a panel. I even put double pole breakers on multiwire branch circuits if they were singles beforehand. Some of the more egregious things I fixed without any coercion, like the underground aluminum SE cable feeding a pool panel with no separate EGC.
Click to expand...
I'm all for fixing stuff like that . . . but not free, except maybe for some simple stuff.

IMO, the customer should be made aware of such existing violations and the inspector's required remedies.
 
nickelec said:
Pretty much all of it. I attached a pic

If the panel wasn't labelled before I took it out I feel. Shouldn't be responsible to label it if I'm jsut swapping it

Also shouldn't be responsible for grouping conductors in order for me to do that the right way I would have to go through the whole apartment and trace out what neutral belongs to what hot etc.

I don't know I'm on the fence about the grounding I don't feel like I need to redo all the Grouding in order to ground both panel.

The existing set up is the water main ground terminates to neutral bar in the panel on the right that we didn't change
cb67f24da68f72f8ac3c6a457b182e5b.jpg


Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I gotta say, the only one I really sympathize with you on is the grouping conductors. You're more likely to get that partially wrong than 100% right and that could actually be dangerous for the next guy.

The rest all relates to stuff you installed yourself, and it's not hard to do. It just takes some time, and you should know the correct way to do it and make an effort to do it with service changes if that is your business. Around here that is just matter of fact. You charge enough to cover the time you need.

"I leave it as bad as the last guy" is not a motto to live by.
 
I agree I will do the other stuff I'm just venting . But totally going to fight the grouping

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
 
nickelec said:
Pretty much all of it. I attached a pic

If the panel wasn't labelled before I took it out I feel. Shouldn't be responsible to label it if I'm jsut swapping it

Also shouldn't be responsible for grouping conductors in order for me to do that the right way I would have to go through the whole apartment and trace out what neutral belongs to what hot etc.

I don't know I'm on the fence about the grounding I don't feel like I need to redo all the Grouding in order to ground both panel.

The existing set up is the water main ground terminates to neutral bar in the panel on the right that we didn't change
cb67f24da68f72f8ac3c6a457b182e5b.jpg


Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I taught if we update panel we have to bring it to existing code
Sometimes it is a pain. Specially when system was old and handyman or HO was working on it before you ...
 
We always label the panel. That's a selling point when you are bidding the job.
The neutrals and handle ties with wire in conduit can be a little tricky. But we would just do the obvious ones.

This inspector left you code references. They never do that in most of Indiana. You should see some of the inspectors in Indiana. They just make stuff up that's not even in the code. I've been told by an Indiana inspector that we're on the 09 NEC. :rolleyes:
 
I think you have to look at what legal authority The inspector actually has. A lot of times they think they have a lot more authority than they really do. The only authority they have is what is granted them by some law that was passed. It's hard for me to believe that they can make you fix anything they think is wrong with the entire electrical system just because you changed out a panel. There is somewhere in that law a definition of what can be required to be fixed and what cannot. If you change out a panel does that mean that you have to put GFCIs in all the bathrooms if they're not there? What about the missing AFCIs?

Incidentally, I think labeling the CB's is a legit requirement if a PB is changed. If it was a one for one swap you could just copy the labeling across, but you would still have to do it. I am less convinced about some of the other things you mentioned. Presumably they were inspected previously and approved so they should be "grandfathered" in place even if they don't meet today's code.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top