Advice concerning a terminated employee

[petersonra]

I'd file a theft complaint with the state's attorney and have him arrested for theft of material.

I think legally this is not theft but what is called conversion. Its a civil matter, not a criminal matter.

 

[cschmid]

here is the evidence:

He was in charge of a 3 building shopping center. We were about 90% done with the wiring in the first building and had not even started the second. We ran a cost to complete because we are having some issues with the GC . When we do these things we know how its going to turn out, we are usually ahead on materials or very close ( I mean this is a shopping center shell it is very cut and dry) but the system stated we were done with 2 buildings and 10% into the third. So I went back and looked through all the invoices with wire cost codes and it was right. I went and asked him if he knew of us loosing any wire or what the deal was. He was very cautious and said no it was all there. That was absolutely impossible we are talking about over 20,000' of wire here. i couldn't prove anything so i let it slide and went on recon. over the next week or so I asked around and found out he was in fact doing side work and he had a helper there when he was working for me. when i confronted him with this he denied it and so i fired him plus he had screwed something else up - maybe because he wasn't there all the time. Thats when he told me about the phone ( that he broke it a month ago) I spoke with my lawer and he said I can deduct for the phone but I would have to find out where the material was being used, contact the owner and make the former employee cough up receipts for it.

I am now on the fence with this one..Because you have made accusations on here already..
I guess you got a problem and 20,000 ft of wire is only part of it..with copper being the theft of choice now a days because of its salvage price and it is common knowledge about the amount stole off job site regulaly..this alone makes you at fault for slander..Witholding his last check makes you the thief..

Unfortunately employees are your company and the ones that are left are watching you handle this..they will make or break your jobs and You now not the leader this situation is..Are you behind in the Job completion??you are now over budget..and this makes it look like you are searching for an escape goat..that is what the jury will see and that is what the employees see..unless you have indisputable proof of the theft and His doing side work you will end up the villain.

You lawyer says you can deduct his pay for the phone..This will lead to an investigation of you by the Government..Go ahead if you are sure your company can handle the extra litigation costs..If you loose all the rest of your employees now will have decisions to make and you will as well..the rapid lose of employees can definitely affect job completion and this affects your bank payments ect..So go ahead pile on this guy for a cell phone and a ladder..a lot to loose for less than five hundred dollars worth of stuff..easy to pick up phone and cancel service on phone and just run over to box store and buy another ladder..

I would definitely not say any thing negative to a future employers about this employee..that is a definite lawsuit you can not slander then in anyway..this is no no..You are now into employee privacy laws and this is whole new area..beside to have him gone and someone else problem would be good thing for you..

So TYHA I feel for you because you are tied emotionally to this and it can come back to haunt you and most likely will already..If it was me I would cut him his check have my lawyer write him a letter requesting your property back..then let it go..you doing re-con is just a stalking issue in court..leagally this should be handled by the professionals..your attorney should of been contacted when you first suspected him and allowed to run the investigation..then you would of caught him and been able to prosecute the case leagally..Now I do not believe it is the same issue..

Thank You for a real issue allot are faced with yet do not share for what ever reasons..I would assume mostly legal..

 

[brian john]

In 25 years in business I have tried to be a decent employer, though I am sure there are a fair amount of people out there that will tell you I am an A**hole.

I furnish my employees with what I consider the best tool and benefits, above and beyond what is dictated by the union. With all I try to do including two weeks severance pay after two weeks of discharge, insures all tools are returned, I hope. I have been reported to the union, for unfair practices for letting a time and material thief go. I have been sued for unfair discharge of a drug addict (addiction can be construed as a handicap?). I have been reported to the NLRB for unfair work practices (seem it is unfair to require some folks to work 40 hours a week). Been charged with sexual discrimination for letting a secretary go (she go into a fist fight with another secretary), claimed there was an affair between the other girl and other employee that lead to her removal. Had a long term employee that was operating a side company, take my truck after discharge (needed to get his material off his main vehicle for his company). I did call the police this time.

My point is no matter how hard an employer tries there are jerks out there, and you'll never know who they are till it happens. (My best employee and 2nd longest employed sued me). Try to avoid hassles, document what you can, do not with hold pay (unless legal to do so), do not make claims you cannot back up, keep a lawyer handy.

I also will admit that labor laws are necessary to protect employees, it is just that JERKS can and do screw the system to their advantage.

 

[growler]

I spoke with my lawyer and he said I can deduct for the phone but I would have to find out where the material was being used, contact the owner and make the former employee cough up receipts for it.

That's why lawyers get the big bucks. Best advice I have seen. 20 K of wire is not something that going to be used on a small residential side job. If these are commercial remodels then there should be a paper trail a mile long.

If he is a licensed electrician I would start by seeing what permits he has pulled in the last two are three months. If he's working under the radar for cash with no permits that's even better ( the IRS could be interested ).

The first thing is to get hard evidence and not hear say. If he is a real thief then you should prosecute.

I would go ahead and give him his last check with nothing held out. Then I would put some effort into putting him in jail to let everyone know that the company does not put up with this sort of thing.

From what I have seen over the years if a foreman is stealing you blind there will be others involved and they will be happy to rat him out for a deal. But you will need a little evidence to bargin with.

Just my thoughts, I'm a very vindictive person.

 

[480sparky]

I still haven't heard...

Do you or do you not have a written policy (ie, employee handbook) that might cover you in this situation?

 

[iwire]

I still haven't heard...

Do you or do you not have a written policy (ie, employee handbook) that might cover you in this situation?

Please explain. :-?

Company handbook or not you still must follow the law. :-?

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

...

But I , like most others on this forum, consider personal integrity to be an important part of our proffesion, and would have no problem telling a future employer of his that he was let go for lacking the basic skills required to be an entry level electrician.:smile:

"Your honor, this employer provided my client with tools, a truck, a cellphone, and filled his material orders, and basically trusted him to install electrical work under his license completely unsupervised. Didn't even visit a jobsite for over a month. But this employer is NOW stating to other contractors that my client lacks even the most basic electrical and construction skills. As a result of uttering this clearly untruth, to multiple prospective employers, he is now unemployable within his trade. We seek punitive and compensatory damages equal to 20 years wages..."

 

[brian john]

"Your honor, this employer provided my client with tools, a truck, a cellphone, and filled his material orders, and basically trusted him to install electrical work under his license completely unsupervised. Didn't even visit a jobsite for over a month. But this employer is NOW stating to other contractors that my client lacks even the most basic electrical and construction skills. As a result of uttering this clearly untruth, to multiple prospective employers, he is now unemployable within his trade. We seek punitive and compensatory damages equal to 20 years wages..."

You'd make a lousy lawyer you forgot MENTAL ANGUISH in the sum of _ _,000,000.00

 

[480sparky]

Please explain. :-?

Company handbook or not you still must follow the law. :-?

With wording like...

"Upon leaving the company for any reason, employees shall return all company-owned equipment, tools, materials....."

Can give you a little firepower if you're going to court.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

You'd make a lousy lawyer you forgot MENTAL ANGUISH in the sum of _ _,000,000.00

I would make a lousy lawyer. Thank you for the compliment. :grin: But why stop at mental anguish? His unemployability has lead to depression, lack of self confidence, and in turn cannot perform at home like he used to. Now here comes the wife/girlfriend with the suit for "lack of services." Just try and disprove THAT...

 

[tonyou812]

Please explain. :-?

Company handbook or not you still must follow the law. :-?

I used to work for this one EC a few years back and the paper work involved when i got the job was like closing on a house. He had a hand book that you had to read through and sign while you were there. He had a late policy that you got a dollar deducted for every minute you were late (up to 10 max per day) and clock in time was 6:30. The money would be deducted from your paycheck for the week and at the end of the year it would be given to the individual with the best attendance. Sometimes it was several guys that got to partake in the money.
So if you wanted to work there you had to sign this form and agree to it. What would the legality be on a policy like this?
I forgot to add that if you had an accident with a vehicle you were subjected to a drug test that day in the office.

 

[charlie b]

here is the evidence:

You have no evidence. Sorry, but you have no evidence whatsoever. What you "know" means nothing, and what you "were told" means less. If you cannot show a video of him removing materials from your storage location, with the camera following him to the other job site, then you cannot prove he stole your stuff. Perhaps a witness statement (i.e., from his helper on the other job) might support your case, but did that other helper actually witness his taking the materials from your storage location? If he told the other helper that he stole the stuff, that would mean nothing, as it is "hearsay evidence," and that is not admissible.

It is harsh, I know, and it is unfair. But based upon what you have described, you are at serious risk of an "unlawful discharge lawsuit." Pay the guy and walk away. You can try to contact the police, if you wish. But my bet is that they will tell you the same thing I am telling you: "where is your evidence, your proof, that (1) stuff was stolen, and (2) this is the thief?"

 

[bikeindy]

There sure are a lot of lawers on this forum.

Lets remember is some states you need no reason to fire a guy. And if a guy has been fired give him his money and get back your tools. If he doesn't return the tools call the cops. Then get busy making money.

 

[cschmid]

There sure are a lot of lawers on this forum.

Lets remember is some states you need no reason to fire a guy. And if a guy has been fired give him his money and get back your tools. If he doesn't return the tools call the cops. Then get busy making money.

Good statement in MN it is at will employment you can be discharged for any reason. Best bet cut him his pay check and ask for your stuff back..Smile and wish him the best of luck..

You got bigger fish to fry..you are probably behind on your Jobs and over budget..these are bigger issues with cash flow it all ends..

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I think legally this is not theft but what is called conversion. Its a civil matter, not a criminal matter.

I don't agree.

Generally, a person commits the crime of theft of property if he or she:

1. Knowingly obtains or exerts unauthorized control over the property of another, with intent to deprive the owner of his or her property;
2. Knowingly obtains by deception control over the property of another, with intent to deprive the owner of his or her property; or
3. Knowingly obtains or exerts control over property in the custody of a law enforcement agency which was explicitly represented to the person by an agent of the law enforcement agency as being stolen.

Conversion is when someone wrongfully uses property of another for their own purposes or alters or destroys it. In an action for conversion, the taking of the property may be lawful, but the retaining of the property is unlawful. To succeed in the action, the plaintiff must prove that he or she demanded the property returned and the defendant refused to do so. Conversion is a modern form of the old-fashioned action called trover. Damages may be recovered for the replacement value of the property as well as for the loss of its use. Conversion is very similar to theft, but is a civil action, not a criminal action. For example, when a mechanic wrongfully refuses to return a car brought in for repairs, it the mechanic may be subject to an action for conversion.

The act of taking the contractors property and installing on a side job is theft. If it can be proved the guy belongs in prison.

 

[jrannis]

Can you tell him he took a pay cut and now makes minimum wage. LOL

I would just eat it and move on. A ladder and some wire....... come on!

 

[cadpoint]

WOW

The NC State of Board of Electrical Examiners work with G.S. (general statu) ie Laws passed by the general assembly.

I beleive it was Buck that stated it first, notify the Board of work that not correctly supervised ie being covered.

The State Board will take great interest if he's licensed! The paper trail exists on the structures that he was moonlighting on.

http://www.ncbeec.org/modules/content/index.php?id=8

work was performed by a qualified individual as defined in G.S.87-41.1

In each separate place of business operated by an electrical contractor at least one listed qualified individual shall be regularly on active duty and shall have the specific duty and authority to supervise and direct all electrical wiring or electrical installation work done or made by such separate place of business.


I assume that why you fired him.

My present boss just layed off a foreman, said he'll hold his tool bag till the phone is returned.
LOL, I didn't know the guy had any tools, I never saw him with any ...

edit for grammer

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

I don't agree.

The act of taking the contractors property and installing on a side job is theft. If it can be proved the guy belongs in prison.

It's not just a matter of ability to prove. You have to get the DA to level charges. And DAs love to NOT get their hands dirty in a matter that could be settled civilly.

 

[ITO]

Forget it and walk away a ladder and cell phone are chump change in the big picture, and trying to recoup the labor and materials will cost you more than they are worth.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

It's not just a matter of ability to prove. You have to get the DA to level charges. And DAs love to NOT get their hands dirty in a matter that could be settled civilly.

Around here the only real issue is getting the DA to do anything is the likelyhood of obtaining a conviction. If that is very likely they will take the case and run with it...high conviction rates look good the next time he runs for office.