Advice from a plumber

Status
Not open for further replies.
J

jeff43222

Senior Member
Location
Minneapolis, Minnesota
I recently did a service upgrade for a guy, and part of the deal is that he wants me to install new circuits for the dryer, laundry, and water heater. I took a look at the water heater the plumber installed the other day, and I discovered that it was a gas model, with 120V electricity needed just to power the electronic ignition.

The HO told me that the plumber was adamant that the receptacle had to have GFCI protection, but I told the HO that apart from being a bad idea overall, I said the only reason I could see it being necessary is if the instructions said it had to have it (receptacle is more than 6' from the utility sink).

So I looked through the instructions, only to discover that they stated very clearly that they do NOT recommend GFCI protection for the receptacle. Since it's not required, I told the HO that I'd put in a single non-GFCI receptacle for it. He was pretty happy I caught the plumber's error, particularly when I explained why I didn't think GFCI protection was a good idea in this case.

Moral of the story: Don't rely on the plumber to get advice about electrical requirements.
 
Re: Advice from a plumber

I just did one of these and ran a direct 12-2 to it and hard wired it.No reason for a gfci

[ November 05, 2005, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
 
Re: Advice from a plumber

Originally posted by jeff43222:
He was pretty happy I caught the plumber's error, particularly when I explained why I didn't think GFCI protection was a good idea in this case.
Click to expand...
Why do think GFCI protection a bad idea for this?

I do agree it meets the exception as you installed a single receptacle. (I am assuming this is an unfinished basement)
 
Re: Advice from a plumber

My main objection was that a nuisance trip would result in a bigger nuisance, namely a lot of cold water in the shower on a Monday morning. We're hardy souls in Minnesota, but not that hardy. :D
 
Re: Advice from a plumber

Originally posted by jeff43222:
We're hardy souls in Minnesota, but not that hardy. :D
Click to expand...
Oh come on, toughen up. :D

Originally posted by jeff43222:
My main objection was that a nuisance trip would result in a bigger nuisance, namely a lot of cold water in the shower on a Monday morning.
Click to expand...
I was just curious why you think it would trip?

GFCIs usually only trip for a reason.

Removing a GFCI because it trips is the same (IMO) as removing overcurrent protection that is tripping.

If either trips we should fix the cause not change the protection.
 
Re: Advice from a plumber

Mainly I was thinking that where the receptacle would be located would be a place that would be extremely unlikely to experience a ground fault, so the only thing that would cause it to trip would be a defective receptacle. Also unlikely, but why run the risk if you don't have to?

I figure the appliance exception to the rule requiring GFCI protection of basement receptacles is there for a reason, namely that the inconvenience of having appliances stop working from a GFCI trip outweighs the extremely low likelihood of experiencing an actual ground fault.

My guess is that's also why the instructions that came with the heater also recommend against GFCI protection.

[ November 05, 2005, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]
 
Re: Advice from a plumber

Originally posted by iwire:
I was just curious why you think it would trip?

GFCIs usually only trip for a reason.
Click to expand...
Thunder, Lightning, ground faults, defective GFI recepts, many reasons. I would install on a single receptacle, 15Amp, 120V or per manufacturer specs/instructions.

Originally posted by jeff43222:

My guess is that's also why the instructions that came with the heater also recommend against GFCI protection.
Click to expand...
Best reason not to install on a GFCI circuit/receptacle.
Manufacturer's instructions.
 
Re: Advice from a plumber

Originally posted by tshea:
Thunder, Lightning, ground faults, defective GFI recepts, many reasons. I would install on a single receptacle, 15Amp, 120V or per manufacturer specs/instructions.
Click to expand...
You forgot 'witchcraft'. :D

Other than manufacturers instructions I would not call any of those reason.

Thunder? I doubt thunder ever tripped a GFCI.

Lightning? Maybe, I bet that is a pretty rare occurrence.

Ground faults? Well ya...you would hope a GFCI would operate with a ground fault. :D

They are being required in more locations all the time regardless of what they supply. :cool:
 
Re: Advice from a plumber

Originally posted by iwire:
Lightning? Maybe, I bet that is a pretty rare occurrence.
Click to expand...
That's what I used to think!
Here in FL it's very common for lightning to not only trip the GFCI but destroy it.
Makes for lots of very easy service call$ ! :D
 
Re: Advice from a plumber

Originally posted by davedottcom:
Here in FL it's very common for lightning to not only trip the GFCI but destroy it.
Click to expand...
I have no trouble believing that, what do you expect you live in lightning central. :D

Where I am we go months with out lightning.
 
Re: Advice from a plumber

Originally posted by iwire:

Thunder? I doubt thunder ever tripped a GFCI.
Click to expand...
Ever been around when the thunder clap seems like it is directly overhead? It will trip a GFCI receptacle!
Defective GFI recepts? Breakers can be defective also, that does not mean I bypass them.
Click to expand...
Defective breakers are replaced, as are defective GFCI receptacles. You wanted a reason.
It's the year 2005 GFCIs are here, get used to it. :D

They are being required in more locations all the time regardless of what they supply. ;)
The point is the manufacturer's installation instructions need to be followed. Yes there are safety issues, but there are also warranty issues. If the WH fails because you installed it on a GFCI and the instructions say DO NOT then you just bought a WH. The inverse is also true.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Advice from a plumber

Originally posted by tshea:
So why not put a GFCI main breaker in the panel, call the house safe, and walk away??
Click to expand...
Well two reasons right off the bat.

1)If you ground fault an outlet you do not want the lights going out at the same time.

2)It would never hold as the cumulative leakage current of all the utilization equipment would likely be higher than 5ma.

Thunder?

I certainly will not say it could never happen but I will say it has to be pretty rare, as in almost never.

It certainly is not a reason to change wiring methods. :cool
 
Re: Advice from a plumber

Yep, when I lived in PA I used to enjoy a rare lightning storm... now...not so much!

As far as Thunder tripping them...I don't know about that, I guess the sound waves could create enough of a vibration to trip one. I dunno?
 
Re: Advice from a plumber

I think the manufacturer's instruction recommendation for a non gfci circuit is purely for selfish reasons.

They want the water heater to last just beyond warranty and they don't want the purchaser to experience any trouble until then.

A $75.00 to $100.00 service charge to push a reset button or change out the gfci because of that "damn water heater" is something they want to avoid .

I would not use a gfci protected circuit just like I don't for basement freezers .
 
Re: Advice from a plumber

Originally posted by marc deschenes:
I would not use a gfci protected circuit just like I don't for basement freezers .
Click to expand...
Well that is certainly allowed. :)

But at the same time a lot of refrigeration equipment is required to be GFCI protected.

All 15 and 20 amp receptacles in non-dwelling kitchens and all vending machines are required to be GFCI protected.

My point is GFCIs can supply these types of loads without false tripping.

My own sump pump is supplied by GFCI, if it trips I will take that as a sign the insulation on the pump is failing. :cool:
 
Re: Advice from a plumber

Originally posted by bphgravity:
Thunder tripping gfci's... Okay, someone needs to stop eating paint chips. :(

If Bob jumps off a bridge are going to jump too? :D

Pass the Glidden. :p
Click to expand...
 
Re: Advice from a plumber

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
Originally posted by bphgravity:
Thunder tripping gfci's... Okay, someone needs to stop eating paint chips.

I agree with Bob all the way.
Click to expand...
Maybe the gfis were scared. :(

If Bob jumps off a bridge are going to jump too? :D

Pass the Glidden. :D :D :D
I've also seen tripped breakers from the storms.

Either way or however you look at it, the mfr says NO GFI. Do what the mfr says and CYA!
As for freezers and refrigeration equip, WE all know about Ryan. (Too lazy to find that thread)
Sumps If yours is on a GFI :cool: mine isn't.
In fact my house was built before GFI were required in the bathrooms. THAT has been corrected.
I do believe in GFIs, except when the mfr recommends against. It is possible(?) the WH was tested with and without GFI protection and found to not perform, for whatever reason, on a non-GFI circuit.

Again the point I make is to follow the mfr instructions.
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top