AFCI absolution

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M. D.

M. D.

Senior Member
I went to add a receptacle outlet at a friends house today,.. I have known this guy for forty years,.. not that it matters much.

Sooo I ran a wire from the pull chain in the attic down to an outlet in the upstairs hallway , being a good doobee I installed a combo AFCI on the existing circuit .(the house is 10 years old + or -)

"trip" ,..reset ,.."trip" ,.. check my work ,.. trip,. reset trip, change the breaker ,... trip ,.. reset trip ,... .
WTF?? So to make a long story short I checked a few boxes on the circuit found nothing ,.. I then removed the AFCI and installed the old circuit breaker and tried to explain to my buddies wife what and why ,.. She said

"please ,..stop.. my head hurts ,...is my house going to burn down because you added this plug"? ..

I hate being put in this spot,.
what spot you say??
between the rock and a hard place.

having to look a customer in the eye and say "This is going to be a very expensive outlet ,...sorry It's the LAW"

I figure there is a connection between the grounded conductors of two different circuits,.. with no load no trip turn on one lamp and,........ "trip"

So there it is my sin laid bare for all to read .. May the gods show mercy
 
Did you at least take an ohm meter and check from neutral to ground with the neutral and ground for that circuit disconnected off the bar? That simple check reveals the root cause of the problem most times.

This is the future, like it or not, and you're really going to have to bone up on quick and efficient troubleshooting procedures and methods. No excuses.
 
mdshunk said:
Did you at least take an ohm meter and check from neutral to ground with the neutral and ground for that circuit disconnected off the bar? That simple check reveals the root cause of the problem most times.

This is the future, like it or not, and you're really going to have to bone up on quick and efficient troubleshooting procedures and methods. No excuses.
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:smile: Yup , no grounding grounded connection.... no excuses ,..it says what it says ,..got it ,..thanks .

Yes mam ,.that is correct 800.00 dollars ,.. yup I know that seems like a lot of money,.. nope the law is what it is ,... I know,.. yes mam,.. I heard you ,.. thief ,.. and you'll tell all who will listen ,...yup I got it.. Have a nice ........ SLAM!!
 
M. D. said:
Yes mam ,.that is correct 800.00 dollars ,.. yup I know that seems like a lot of money,.. nope the law is what it is ,... I know,.. yes mam,.. I heard you ,.. thief ,.. and you'll tell all who will listen ,...yup I got it.. Have a nice ........ SLAM!!
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M. D., you capture the crux of this perfectly.

The newness of her house, I'm sure, hasn't faded. Ten years of it working "just fine."

The psychology of the situation is that the electrician is creating a made up problem that is shrouded in techno-babble for the purpose of extracting money from homeowners pocket.

Even "good troubleshooting techniques" are going to be perceived as a monetary penalty by many customers.

If the combo AFCI could be "read" by a device like an automobile computer error code reader, one could demonstrate the problem to the client with the error code from the AFCI.
 
"combination"

"combination"

Maybe this is what they really mean by "combination" afci's! You got a "combination" of problems! Maybe she will not call the better biz on you. 40 YEARS OF FRIENDSHIP LOST OVER A STINKIN' AFCI!:mad:
 
This thread raises some very good issues. I'm sure a good percentage of homeowners have a real problem spending money on something they don't understand, can't see, and perceive to be some made up hazard because of the illusion that it "works fine" as Al said.
 
peter d said:
This thread raises some very good issues. I'm sure a good percentage of homeowners have a real problem spending money on something they don't understand, can't see, and perceive to be some made up hazard because of the illusion that it "works fine" as Al said.
Click to expand...


This should be pretty interesting, I cant wait to get my hands on some combo afci's...
 
I have been thinking about possible problems with AFCI's quite a bit.

One thing that may help a little in the future is to install the AFCI before adding anything to the circuit. If it trips then see if the fix is simple and if not look for another circuit. This may take a little longer but you will know what you are dealing with before you start the additional work. If you need to leave things as they are then you haven't added anything. ( the customer can always opt out of paying for additional work, they do have a choice).

I now where there is a slight problem at one house and I even know where the problem is located. It's in a junction box for a very large and heavy chandelier in a foyer about 25 ft up. This is just not the circuit you want to add a receptacle to requiring an AFCI.
 
you know, it would be nice if the manufacturer's would advertise or try some type of public education on the subject of AFCI's. If they hear the manufacturer say "your vaccum may not work on this and its 12x the price of a standard circuit breaker", the customers may not accuse of ripping them off so much. :)
 
al hildenbrand said:
If the combo AFCI could be "read" by a device like an automobile computer error code reader, one could demonstrate the problem to the client with the error code from the AFCI.
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The Siemens combo afci has two LEDs that indicate the type of arc fault.
 
tom the problem is the most common panel is the SQD QO it is sold by every box store in the country..the LED lights mean nothing to the Home owner and still 50% of the time the AFCI is junk and you can change two or three of them to get one of them to work correctly..

then you have to fight with the supplier to take them back..then they just re-box them and sell them again so you might be getting a faulty one to start with..again we are trying to sell Yugo's for Cadillacs..

It is wrong to knowing pass a regulation that creates unnecessary burdens that out ways it benefits..I believe the code should be suspended until the manufactures make the AFCI work correctly..If it was suspended and the manufacturers made to recall the junk..you would see working ones in a short period of time..

But it will only work if we all get on the same page as long as you think everything is fine we will have our reputations tarnished daily and our profession known as the organized thief's..

Let me add one more twist to this..Now the builders organizations are against the AFCI, the homeowners are against the AFCI, the state regulators are bucking the AFCI regulations..when does the negative publicity stop and someone put a positive twist that sells the public..Is it our responsibility to do that for the manufacturer..is our responsibility to work out the bugs for the manufacturer..is the manufacturer paying you..who is going to make the manufacturers stand up and take responsibility for there equipment..There is only one way to get reliable AFCI that is by forcing the manufacturer to either pony up good working models or recalling them until they get it correct..

Thats my opinion..
 
M. D. said:
So there it is my sin laid bare for all to read .. May the gods show mercy
Click to expand...

The Gods may show mercy on your sin of being a hack and reinstalling the original circuit breaker. :roll: :wink: :grin:

.....but your literary skills need no redemption.

Hey, wasn't Charlie Brown often seen with a typewriter? Or was that Snoopy?.......The Dog! :grin:
 
al hildenbrand said:
M. D., you capture the crux of this perfectly.

The psychology of the situation is that the electrician is creating a made up problem that is shrouded in techno-babble for the purpose of extracting money from homeowners pocket.
Click to expand...

...and sometimes when I try to explain new code requirements to homeowners, I get this confused look, followed by the ever common, It's worked fine like it was for years.

....can't help but think that they think you're full of it. If I didn't know squat about electricity and someone hit me with all the techno chaos of rules, restrictions, requirements.... for God's sake the Code dear homeowner!!!....and the.....the.....Cost. My God.

I can't help but think, that, in some situations increased costs passed on to homeowners results in the opposite intent of the NEC as it pertains to protecting life and property. In some sectors of society this only encourages more do-it-yourselfers and more hazards to the public and anyone called to work on these installtions after the fact.

.....The Dog says, chew on that.
 
growler said:
I have been thinking about possible problems with AFCI's quite a bit.

One thing that may help a little in the future is to install the AFCI before adding anything to the circuit. If it trips then see if the fix is simple and if not look for another circuit. This may take a little longer but you will know what you are dealing with before you start the additional work. If you need to leave things as they are then you haven't added anything. ( the customer can always opt out of paying for additional work, they do have a choice).

I now where there is a slight problem at one house and I even know where the problem is located. It's in a junction box for a very large and heavy chandelier in a foyer about 25 ft up. This is just not the circuit you want to add a receptacle to requiring an AFCI.
Click to expand...

From one dog to another....good thinking.

You play outside the box (fence). :smile:
 
Its too bad we can't just put in a two circuit load center someplace out at the end of a branch circuit, label it as 120 volts, and start a new circuit right there with an afci installed in that load center.
 
frizbeedog said:
....I can't help but think, that, in some situations increased costs passed on to homeowners results in the opposite intent of the NEC as it pertains to protecting life and property. In some sectors of society this only encourages more do-it-yourselfers and more hazards to the public and anyone called to work on these installtions after the fact.

.....The Dog says, chew on that.
Click to expand...

I could not agree more,... I have home owners and builders alike begging me not to pull permits ,.. why ?? because the market will not ,..in most cases, support the addition of a receptacle outlet to a home costing $1,000.00 ...
 
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cschmid said:
tom the problem is the most common panel is the SQD QO it is sold by every box store in the country..the LED lights mean nothing to the Home owner and still 50% of the time the AFCI is junk and you can change two or three of them to get one of them to work correctly......

.
Click to expand...
'

Great post.
 
I think AFCI breakers have less to do with saftey and more to do with big business getting laws passed to make overpriced breakers required to be installed by law. I wish I could manufacture something for a couple dollars and have a law passed that everyone building a house has to install my product at 2000% mark up.....
 
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