AFCI Breakers

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Sierrasparky said:
There is evidence of the funny business and it was presented here on this forum several years ago. I forget the guys name but he was a engineer for Eaton. He exposed the corruption revolving around AFCI's He exposed the fact that The combination AFCI was a farce.
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Interesting. That actually took place here on the open forum? :eek:
 
I can't seem to find the thread. If this has been erased from MH then there is a real conspiracy. :eek:hmy:
 
bphgravity said:
You know what, your are all correct. The manufacturers are doing everything they can to destroy the very industry that allows them to exist. They are working covertly to add unnecessary requirements to the code just so that code loses its credibility and the trust of the industry. Really? You guys are lunatics.

This is not a communistic country. Companies are permitted to make a profit while offering products and services that benefit the society. That profit reduces the cost of products and services, allows for innovation and technology, and allows for 400,000 jobs at over 7,000 facilities in the US alone.

The CMPs are made up men and women that work for manufacturers in the codes and standards or engineering divisions of the company. They are not sales people, they are not marketers, they do not sit on the stockholder boards making financial decisions for the company. They are individuals that believe in the work they do and they love the industry. They are genuinely concerned abut the wellbeing of their customers and society.

One last thing. The US Fire Administration has reported residential building electrical malfunction fires for the five-year period of 2007 to 2011 show a 4 percent decrease in fires, a 16 percent decrease in deaths, and a 13 percent decrease in dollar loss. There is no possible way that AFCIs are playing a role in this statistic.
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No,bph,you are correct. We're all lunatics, and we are all lying about the problems we have experienced with afcis. And you are also right that there is no way we could possibly know what goes in those cmp meeting because, like you said in your previous post, we aren't there. We do KNOW, however, what the "intended" purpose of an afci is because of the very heavily promoted literature that has emanated from NEMA ad nauseum. And the fact is is that the "issues" said garbage is supposed to mitigate or prevent are either #1) Hypothetical-meaning might, maybe, could, probably won't and/or can't happen.#2) Easily remedied by ditching certain rat practices like banning backstabbing daisy chained receptacles (another cmp/nema cluster****), non pretwisted joints, cracking down on trunk slammers etc (you know, common sense stuff that would make a difference, would require real effort, and not benefit the manufacturers bottom line). And #3) Any issues or scenarios that actually exist have been detectable for a long time and are already preventable with the use of existing reliable technology. I do love it when the loaded neutral rubs that egc, the afci trips, and it is exclaimed, "See, they really do work!!!"-this is never mind the fact that the GFCI does the same thing when the same scenario occurs. So, from a safety standpoint, there is no logical reason for the afci to even exist. And before you or anyone else tries to draw parallels between trade resistance to afcis today and resistance gfcis met back in the '70s, electricians then as now had very good reasons for rejecting the new stuff. Like when the Gfci would false trip when it was real humid, but just wouldn't function when some poor soul really needed it to and people died. The Gfci also had something the afci doesn't-a real well defined cause/effect problem (accidental electrocution) for which no reliable preventative existed. The Gfci had a rocky start but the benefits became apparent fairly quickly as the device was improved and we saw results. On the other hand, Afcis have a had a decade and a half (more if you throw in R&D) and hardworking dedicated electricians are still pursuing phantoms and looking moronic, while the customer is out more cash. Oh, wait, I guess that since they do trip when an otherwise functioning appliance is plugged in, or when they trip for no aparent reason at all, then yes they do "something. Despite all of the extraordinary claims, You, NEMA, the CMP, NFPA, or whoever else you may want to reference has absolutely no definitive evidence that any Afci on the market is capable of preventing "actual electrical fires" ( "actual electrical fires" meaning those that were found to caused solely by failure of the premises wiring or associated components-NOT fires of "unknown origin" that the volunteer fire chief determined to be caused by the 'lectrical). You cannot even point to a single bonafide fire case where it was concluded that the presence of an afci provided any benefit vs. the aformentioned Gfci, a standard magnetic cb, or even the archaic screw in fuse. That is a proven fact. It is also a proven fact that the number of actual electrical fires has been dropping for decades (way before we were graced by the Afcis presence) and that this decline has not accelerated since the afci introduction. According to your inference, us wiremen are ignorant conspiracy theorists, and the NEMA/CMP juggernaut always has good intentions, they really do their homework before rolling out product, and they have the customers best interest at heart. Ever heard of Federal Pacific? Zinsco? What about Kaiser KaFlex( " Concerns about metallurgy are nonsense, sure, go ahead and terminate this stuff to ANY device, it did ok in testing,didn't it?"-circa 1971)? Or those single lamp Paulding ceramic fixtures sold for a stretch during the '80s? Lets be honest Bph-If these esteemed manufacturers (whose low voltage divisions occupy such a small spot on the their bottom line according to you) really believed in the afcis ability to prevent loss of life or property and "cared" about the consumer, why are Afcis still so costly? The price of these damn things has remained constant for at least a decade. Why not make them cheaper as to be more attractive to consumers? Oh, I forgot-their still a sham, but be rest assured- NEMA will give us low cost Afci's, eventually. They just have to increase demand for them the only way they know how-CMP mandates.
 
The NFPA and NEMA don't make laws. The NEC is developed through a consensus process and receives ANSI accreditation. When a new edition gets published, it becomes up to the state and local jurisdictions to decide whether or not to make the new code law. And every state has the authority to amend or modify the codes and standard they adopt in whatever manner they deem necessary for their community. NEMA has (4) individuals that advocate for the adoption of the NEC in the US. The NFPA only has (2). That's it. The money spent by these two organizations on code adoption initiatives is miniscule. NEMA has 400 members. The NAHB has 140,000 members. NEMA has no state or local chapters. The NAHB has 800 state and local chapters. NEMA's Codes & Standards Committee has 40 members. The NAHB Board of Directors has 2,200 members. NEMA and the NFPA are not the powerhouses you guys imagine them to be. Its simply not the case.

I remember when I was a kid hearing my dad complain about the government when seatbelt laws started going into effect. My dad felt the government had no right to make him use a seatbelt and shouldn't have the authority to make car manufacturers install them. He actually felt seatbelts were death traps and would probably cause more injuries and deaths. And sure enough, people are still dying in car accidents, even when wearing seatbelts. So along comes airbags, with more promise of reducing the loss of life while increasing the cost of vehicles. This made my dad feel vindicated. "See", he would say; "Seatbelts were suppose to save us all, but they didn't, did they. Now we to pay for air bags, anti-lock brakes, and all this other crap and they probably don't work either."

You guys know where I am going with all this. Standard overcurrent devices do a pretty good job for most of the faults that occur on a wiring system. But shock, electrocution, and fire still occur under certain conditions. Combine a standard overcurrent device with GFCI and more lives and property are saved. AFCI's are just the latest technology to address a problem with our wiring systems. And just like seatbelts, air bags, and antilock brakes; no one device or even the combination of many devices will cover every possible condition that may result in a fire, injury, or loss of life.

It is going to take some time to see the results just as it did for GFCIs. And we know that 210.12(A) can't do it all on its own. That's why we have 210.12(B),(C), and 406.4(D)(4). Over a period of time, and not overnight, as more AFCIs get installed in both new and existing dwellings, a complimentary reduction in fires, deaths and loss of property will occur as well.

One more point. We currently have 25 states that have adopted the 2014 NEC, 18 of them have with NO AFCI AMENDMENTS. Of the 17 states that are still on the 2011 NEC, 12 have NO AFCI AMENDMENTS. So, trace this trend backwards for about a decade and try to calculate the number of AFCIs that have been installed throughout the US and are still in use today. Its in the millions. And of all those millions of AFCIs out there, less than a fraction of 1% of them have been reported as having a problem or experiencing nuisance tripping. And I am sorry, as important and significant as this Forum is, it is not a representative sample of the total US electrical industry.

I have been in direct contact with several of the largest homebuilders in the US. This includes DR Horton, PulteGroup, Lennar and others. I have asked them how much of a problem are AFCis and guess what, there is no problem. When compared to defective drywall, water leaks, energy conservation requirements, and a host of others complaints; AFCIs don't even get a ranking. In fact, the entire electrical system doesn't even get a ranking. They are more concerned about the cost and issues associated with installing "high-efficacy" lamps than they are about AFCIs. That is a fact. So for the 12 of you out there having problems, I sincerely apologize.

Lets not forget that AFCI technology has now entered the receptacle outlet market. This means not less than 4 more American companies are in on the conspiracy. The list now includes 8 US electrical corporations, NEMA, UL, NFPA, the CPSC, all the voting members of CMP-2, ANSI, OSHA, the USFA, state governments, county governments, city governments, and bigfoot. REALLY?

All this in-fighting is just making our industry weaker. If we can't hold a coalition amongst ourselves, we can never advance our industry. Get on board, get out of the way, or get run over. The choice is yours...
 
bphgravity said:
... AFCI's are just the latest technology to address a problem with our wiring systems. ...
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There is no evidence that a self sustaining arc can even exist at dwelling unit voltages. The testing labs create a carbonized path using thousands of volts before testing the AFCI. That is not the real world.

If self sustaining arcs exist at dwelling unit voltages, then why does 230.95 apply only to 480Y/277 volt systems and not to 208Y/120 volt systems?

Detailed studies of electrical fires show that most are from joule heating at a high resistance connection...something that no device on the market can detect and clear. In some cases a GFP would clear this type of fault before a fire starts because the heat damaged insulation would result in a ground fault, but GPF is not a required function of the AFCI device and one manufacturer no longer uses GFP in any of their AFCIs and a second does not use GFP in some of theirs.
 
bphgravity said:
One more point. We currently have 25 states that have adopted the 2014 NEC, 18 of them have with NO AFCI AMENDMENTS. Of the 17 states that are still on the 2011 NEC, 12 have NO AFCI AMENDMENTS. So, trace this trend backwards for about a decade and try to calculate the number of AFCIs that have been installed throughout the US and are still in use today. Its in the millions. And of all those millions of AFCIs out there, less than a fraction of 1% of them have been reported as having a problem or experiencing nuisance tripping. And I am sorry, as important and significant as this Forum is, it is not a representative sample of the total US electrical industry.

I have been in direct contact with several of the largest homebuilders in the US. This includes DR Horton, PulteGroup, Lennar and others. I have asked them how much of a problem are AFCis and guess what, there is no problem. When compared to defective drywall, water leaks, energy conservation requirements, and a host of others complaints; AFCIs don't even get a ranking. In fact, the entire electrical system doesn't even get a ranking. They are more concerned about the cost and issues associated with installing "high-efficacy" lamps than they are about AFCIs. That is a fact. So for the 12 of you out there having problems, I sincerely apologize.

Lets not forget that AFCI technology has now entered the receptacle outlet market. This means not less than 4 more American companies are in on the conspiracy. The list now includes 8 US electrical corporations, NEMA, UL, NFPA, the CPSC, all the voting members of CMP-2, ANSI, OSHA, the USFA, state governments, county governments, city governments, and bigfoot. REALLY?

All this in-fighting is just making our industry weaker. If we can't hold a coalition amongst ourselves, we can never advance our industry. Get on board, get out of the way, or get run over. The choice is yours...
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Consensus --- ya know that is a conspiracy all by itself. Science is not a consensus. We don't calculate the speed of light through consensus. We don't calculate by consensus. Consensus has no place here. The facts should stand alone.


The reason you don't see amendments is because the influence of the NEC is too great. The manufactures are not going to lobby to remove them or limit them. The only stakeholder would be the contractor or the homeowner. That group is not active enough or involved to make any changes. Therefore no amendment.


Only 12 you say complain. Mr. you really live under a rock. Many a contractors are silent. I know contractors who complain and just won't install them or pull them after final. If you look at the bottom line for a contractor they are a wasted item. The countless un- recovered cost to troubleshoot them is staggering. The cost associated do not outweigh the benefit. Properly working smoke detectors are far more cost benefit than any AFCI will ever be.
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Get on board, get out of the way, or get run over. The choice is yours-
You have a point as we are getting run over. Contractors don't have a big enough lobby group to do much of anything. That is why here in CA we get run roughshod by our licensing agency.

You have a nice day.
 
bphgravity said:
The NFPA and NEMA don't make laws...

I remember when I was a kid hearing my dad complain about the government when seatbelt laws started going into effect...

You guys know where I am going with all this... AFCI's are just the latest technology to address a problem with our wiring systems...

It is going to take some time to see the results just as it did for GFCIs...

One more point... I am sorry, as important and significant as this Forum is, it is not a representative sample of the total US electrical industry.

I have been in direct contact with several of the largest homebuilders in the US... They are more concerned about the cost and issues associated with installing "high-efficacy" lamps than they are about AFCIs. That is a fact. So for the 12 of you out there having problems, I sincerely apologize.

Lets not forget that AFCI technology has now entered the receptacle outlet market. This means not less than 4 more American companies are in on the conspiracy. The list now includes 8 US electrical corporations, NEMA, UL, NFPA, the CPSC, all the voting members of CMP-2, ANSI, OSHA, the USFA, state governments, county governments, city governments, and bigfoot. REALLY?

All this in-fighting is just making our industry weaker. If we can't hold a coalition amongst ourselves, we can never advance our industry. Get on board, get out of the way, or get run over. The choice is yours...
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NFPA may not write laws, but they certainly write the standards that get adopted as law in many jurisdictions. What's more, there isn't a vote in the house, senate and chance of veto by the president along the way.

Seat belts and AFCI technology are worlds apart. It ridiculous to even make that comparison. Seat belts and GFCIs are comparable. AFCIs and self driving vehicles are a better comparison.

Just because something is the latest technology doesn't always make it an optimum solution. In general, new homes, which are very "technologically advanced" are more flammable and susceptible to more kinds of decay than anything ever seen before.

There is no way to quantify results from AFCI technology no matter how much time passes, unlike with GFCI technology. There are simply too many variables involved to make any claims as to their efficacy, and the statistics and forensics are too weak to be considered definitive.

You are correct - this forum is not representative of the US electrical industry. There is a much higher concentration of intelligent, well educated, experienced professionals here than in the general industry.

Homebuilders are not electrical contractors. They don't have to eat the costs of call backs for the electrical system. They are only interested in one thing - the cost to provide a saleable product to a homebuying customer. They are not some elite group of caring individuals who have safety, quality or legacy as their primary concern. Profit is their primary concern. Efficient lighting costs money to provide and is a hard sell which is why we see so much resistance to it. Labelling AFCIs as "safety devices" make them an easier sell, so the cost is easier to justify and they're cheaper than a sprinkler system, which, considering the flammability of modern homes, is definitely the better investment in safety.

Yes, these products have entered the market which will make them immensely difficult to eliminate just like high fructose corn syrup, trans fats, cigarettes, lead and asbestos.

That last paragraph you wrote is offensive and belligerent. I seriously doubt you'd have the courage to say that to any of our faces in person.
 
bphgravity said:
My dad felt the government had no right to make him use a seatbelt and shouldn't have the authority to make car manufacturers install them.
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I'm thinking I would have liked your dad. :)

AFCI's are just the latest technology to address a problem with our wiring systems. And just like seatbelts, air bags, and antilock brakes; no one device or even the combination of many devices will cover every possible condition that may result in a fire, injury, or loss of life.
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To extend your analogy, AFCIs are just like airbags, just without the proof of deployed airbags to indicate that the airbag did indeed deploy. I can understand the equation "car plus velocity plus brick wall = deployed airbag". If I am curious, I can test an airbag. I can even test it without deploying it. Show me the AFCI tester.

And of all those millions of AFCIs out there, less than a fraction of 1% of them have been reported as having a problem or experiencing nuisance tripping.
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I don't answer to NEMA, Siemens, or the NFPA whenever a AFCI gives me a problem. I do what everybody else does, cope and curse under my breath. If one percent of all AFCIs installed have reported problems that get all the way back to the manufacturer, you either have willing participants giving feedback to the manufacturers or one hell of a defective product.

I have been in direct contact with several of the largest homebuilders in the US. This includes DR Horton, PulteGroup, Lennar and others. I have asked them how much of a problem are AFCis and guess what, there is no problem. When compared to defective drywall, water leaks, energy conservation requirements, and a host of others complaints; AFCIs don't even get a ranking.
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Wow - the upper echelon of prominent general contracting companies have no idea what an AFCI is, what a news flash. I can barely keep the field guys up to speed on "what's that weird breaker there?"

Lets not forget that AFCI technology has now entered the receptacle outlet market.
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Nonsense, you know as well as anyone else that they've had their finger on their respective chess piece in this mess from the beginning. They're just now releasing products on the market.

This means not less than 4 more American companies are in on the conspiracy. ... and bigfoot. REALLY?
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As has been mentioned before, it is not a conspiracy when it happens in broad daylight with documentation. Just because it's wrong does not mean it is happening behind closed doors.

All this in-fighting is just making our industry weaker. If we can't hold a coalition amongst ourselves, we can never advance our industry. Get on board, get out of the way, or get run over. The choice is yours...
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Nonsense, this "in-fighting" is impotent in the grand scheme of things. It simply serves as an outlet, as we put up with whatever is foisted upon us next.
 
PetrosA said:
NFPA may not write laws, but they certainly write the standards that get adopted as law in many jurisdictions. What's more, there isn't a vote in the house, senate and chance of veto by the president along the way. ...
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While not adopted at the federal level, and the AFCI actually could not be adopted at the federal level because of cost benefit requirements for federal laws, the NEC is adopted by some unit of government, and you do have the chance to lobby those who vote to adopt.
 
Ya know guys we are not going to convince anyone.
As long as there is the mentality " it is because I said so " we are all doomed. It's a shame.


Anyone know who is keeping the GF detection in their AFCI breaker?
 
Dennis Alwon said:
We have had very little issues with afci breakers. Not sure why but we have only had a handful of issues and most of them were with either Cutler Hammer or Seimens. We have not had an issue with GE in a few years now. I think they are getting better, at least I hope so...
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GE AFCIs have no GFP in them, so right there you are installing a product that is doing absolutely nothing to improve safety yet paying 14 times more per breaker.
 
Anybody kept count?


Seems like maybe 2-1/2 folks think afci the best thing since condoms that change color for std, everybody else not so keen (or even downright hostile) on the efficacy of these foisted devices.
 
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