afci breakers

[iwire]

BITE (built-in-test-equipment) by definition, cannot include all device components when it does its test.

Actually with a GFCI the button tests more components then an external test can. :smile:

 

[wptski]

Did you take your questions to UL as I suggested?

Roger

You gotta to be kidding? You can't even get a straight answer from Leviton about their GFCI's, just a link to their specs which I was asking about! UL isn't a user here. You guys are tossing around this "indicator" word and repeat a statement or post a link. Why don't you have your own opinions?

I should have asked if a AFCI has a visible indication that it's tripped? I "thought" and may be wrong that some have a LED or am I thinking about GFCIs indicator light??:-? If not, isn't the mechanical tripping sound a "indicator"??

 

[roger]

You gotta to be kidding? You can't even get a straight answer from Leviton about their GFCI's,

And you find that surprising?

just a link to their specs which I was asking about!

Can't help you there.

UL isn't a user here.

And your point is?

You guys are tossing around this "indicator" word and repeat a statement or post a link. Why don't you have your own opinions?

We do, but until you can get the listing/testing entity to change their stance, we are going by what is available on the market and there is no "testers" out there to talk about, only indicators.

I should have asked if a AFCI has a visible indication that it's tripped? I "thought" and may be wrong that some have a LED or am I thinking about GFCIs indicator light??:-? If not, isn't the mechanical tripping sound a "indicator"??

I would say yes it is an indicator and not a tester, and that is what we are trying to tell you. There are a lot of indicators out there, what we need is an accepted tester, do you know of one? If you do we can end this conversation, so please, bring one to the table.

Roger

 

[mdshunk]

I would say yes it is an indicator and not a tester, and that is what we are trying to tell you. There are a lot of indicators out there, what we need is an accepted tester, do you know of one? If you do we can end this conversation, so please, bring one to the table.

What's this thing? I know it's been discussed before, but I forget the resolution. The manufacturer calls it a tester:

http://www.tasco-usa.com/aft120.htm

 

[roger]

What's this thing? I know it's been discussed before, but I forget the resolution. The manufacturer calls it a tester:

http://www.tasco-usa.com/aft120.htm

Marc, I have a 120 volt table saw connected to a 20 amp circuit that the manufacture says is 3 hp also.

Roger

 

[wptski]

And you find that surprising?

Nope!

And your point is?

I'm asking this forum not UL.

=rogerI would say yes it is an indicator and not a tester, and that is what we are trying to tell you. There are a lot of indicators out there, what we need is an accepted tester, do you know of one? If you do we can end this conversation, so please, bring one to the table.

So you press the test button and get a indicator. Nobody in the world has a AFCI tester to satisfy you guys until UL puts their stamp on one!

 

[JohnJ0906]

So you press the test button and get a indicator. Nobody in the world has a AFCI tester to satisfy you guys until UL puts their stamp on one!

No, no one has an AFCI tester that satisfies UL or the manufacterers.
It has nothing to do with what you want, or what I want.

 

[roger]

Nope!


I'm asking this forum not UL.

Well, you may have missed it, UL is the captain of this ship.

So you press the test button and get a indicator. Nobody in the world has a AFCI tester to satisfy you guys until UL puts their stamp on one!

Satisfying us is not the issue.

If this is such a thorn in your side introduce a recognized tester that satisfies everyone and we will be happy, believe me, it's true, it really is. :grin: :grin: :grin:

Roger

 

[wptski]

If this is such a thorn in your side introduce a recognized tester that satisfies everyone and we will be happy, believe me, it's true, it really is. :grin: :grin: :grin:

Roger

Gosh, you guys already nailed a guy that designed one in another thread! I just a user not a designer.

 

[roger]

Gosh, you guys already nailed a guy that designed one in another thread! I just a user not a designer.

But, was it recognized by anyone?

Well, maybe you could start a testing lab to recognize these new indicators/ (clear throat) testers, and it could be "WL", (wptski labs) after all, it's only one letter from UL.

Roger

 

[iwire]

From Square D

Question A third-party AFCI tester fails to trip the Square D AFI breaker. Is the breaker bad?

Answer Perhaps not. The only UL approved method of testing an AFCI circuit breaker is to press the push-to-test button when installed in an energized load center or panel. This test injects a signal into the AFCI sensor that looks like an arc to the AFCI. A properly functioning AFCI will trip when the test button is pushed. The third-party units are UL listed as AFCI indicators (not testers). AFCI indicators may not recognize all AFCI breakers, and should not be relied on to determine functionality of an AFCI circuit breaker.

Paragraph 31.8.1 of the UL 1436 standard requires the AFCI Indicator markings or instructions to effectively state that the test button on the AFCI circuit breaker demonstrates proper operation.

Question Does third-party equipment exist to test the AFCI to determine that it is functioning properly?

Answer No. So-called AFCI ``testers`` are on the market, but they are not UL listed for testing the function of an AFI circuit breaker. UL 1436 refers to them as ``indicators`` rather than testers, and Square D does not endorse them or recommend their use. They are subject to error in the form of giving a false negative result.
The UL approved method of testing an AFCI circuit breaker is to press the push-to-test button when installed in an energized load center or panel. This test injects a signal into the AFCI sensor that looks like an arc to the AFCI. A properly functioning AFCI will trip when the test button is pushed.

Paragraph 31.8.1 of the UL 1436 standard requires the AFCI Indicator markings or instructions to effectively state that the test button on the AFCI circuit breaker demonstrates proper operation.

Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter
Tester? Not Really.​

The proper way to test an AFCI is to use the push-to-test button located on the device.

Using an AFCI indicator, also referred to as an ?AFCI tester,? may yield confusing and
conflicting results.

The electrical industry has always had a fascination with testers. There are testers for ground fault circuit interrupters
(GFCIs), voltage drop, circuit polarity, circuit continuity and now the latest addition ? the arc fault circuit interrupter
(AFCI) tester.
NEC 210.12 requires AFCIs on 15 and 20 ampere branch circuits that supply bedrooms in dwelling units. The intent of the
AFCI is to detect hazardous arcing and turn off the circuit in order to reduce the potential of fire from an arc. AFCIs are
available from a variety of manufacturers and have been installed in thousands of homes.

To capitalize on this new device, the AFCI ?tester? has shown up in the market place. Many electrical inspectors and home
inspectors have purchased the tester with the idea that it will tell them whether an AFCI is functioning properly.
Unfortunately, confusing and conflicting results can occur.
Testers of many kinds can be very useful tools for accomplishing specific tasks and some are more useful than others.
Before deciding whether a tester may be useful for the installation and inspection of AFCI circuits, you might find the
following facts helpful.
T
he Nature of AFCI Designs
The UL standard for AFCIs (UL 1699) sets forth the requirements for the proper functioning of an AFCI. A number of the
tests are efficacy tests that subject the AFCI to various arcing scenarios. The AFCI must detect the arc and open the circuit
before the cotton fire indicator ignites at the arcing location. In addition, the AFCI has to be able to resist tripping under a
number of ?normal arcing? scenarios (e.g., thermostatically controlled contacts) that are established in the standard.
It is important to recognize that the standard does not set forth the method that a manufacturer must use to detect the
hazardous arcing conditions and resist the normal arcing conditions. Manufacturers can utilize different and unique
methods to achieve the expected result. Therefore, manufacturer A may use one algorithm for detection and manufacturer
B may use something completely different. Both meet the standard and are acceptable AFCIs; they just get there by
traveling down different paths.
This is an important concept to grasp in order to understand why the testers may not necessarily work properly in
the field.

It?s An Indicator, Not A Tester
The reality is that there is no portable AFCI tester on the market today. If one looks closely at the products, they carry a
listing as an ?AFCI indicator.? UL 1436 ? Outlet Testers and Similar Indicating Devices is careful to refer to an AFCI
indicator, not an AFCI tester.
In fact, the standard recognizes the differing nature of arc detection and requires a marking or notation in the instructions1
that states:
?CAUTION: AFCIs recognize characteristics unique to arcing, and AFCI indicators produce characteristics that mimic some
forms of arcing. Because of this the indicator may give a false indication that the AFCI is not functioning properly. If this
occurs, recheck the operation of the AFCI using the test and reset buttons. The AFCI button test function will demonstrate
proper operation.?

Because of the variation in AFCI designs, an AFCI indicator that may work with one manufacturer?s product may not work
properly with another. It is also important to remember that AFCI manufacturers are constantly improving their products.
These improvements can also result in an AFCI that functions properly and meets that standard, but no longer works with
a specific AFCI indicator.

In addition, the manufacturer of the AFCI indicator will not be familiar with the tolerances that are acceptable within the
design of the AFCI itself. The AFCI indicator may function correctly with a device that falls into the middle of its tolerance
band, but not work with one that is at the high or low end of the tolerance band, even though all of the devices represent a
properly functioning AFCI.


Use the Test Button

To determine whether an AFCI is functioning properly, use the test button on the AFCI. Pushing the test button should
result in the device opening. This is not a ?mechanical? test. Pushing the test button imposes a simulated arcing condition
on the circuit and the AFCI must be able to detect that arcing condition and open. If the device does not open, then the
AFCI should be replaced. If the device opens when the test button is pressed and it can be reset, then it is a properly
functioning AFCI and it has been ?tested.?
Don?t Toss a Perfectly Good AFCI
As stated earlier, the best method for testing an AFCI is the integral test button. If the test button shows proper operation,
then the AFCI is functioning correctly. This is true even if your AFCI indicator device does not trip the AFCI. It is unfortunate
that some properly functioning AFCI have been replaced in the field due to a false indication of their status from an AFCI
indicator. Upon return to the manufacturer, the AFCI is evaluated and frequently found to be functioning properly.
Summary

The bottom line is that the test button on the AFCI is the only recognized method for testing the proper operation of the
AFCI. An AFCI indicator may be a nice way to determine if a particular circuit is connected to an AFCI, but it provides no
definitive answer on whether an AFCI is properly working or not.

About the author:

Jim Pauley is Vice President, Industry and Government Relations for Schneider Electric-North American Operating Division.

He is a member of NEC Code Panel 2, the NEC Technical Correlating Committee, the NFPA Standards Council and the ANSI Executive Standards Council.



? 2005 Schneider Electric All Rights Reserved
Document Number 0760DB0501 2-05
Schneider Electric - North American Operating Division
1415 S. Roselle Road
Palatine, IL 60067
Tel: 847-397-2600
Fax: 847-925-7500

 

[ELA]

Actually with a GFCI the button tests more components then an external test can. :smile:

How so, please Enlighten us?

 

[iwire]

The directions for an Ideal 'Arc Fault Tester'

AFCI Branch Circuit Testing​

1. Consult the AFCI manufacturer?s installation instructions to determine that the
AFCI is installed in accordance with the manufacturer?s specifications.

2. Check for correct wiring of the receptacle and all remotely connected receptacles
on the branch circuit.

3. Operate the test button on the AFCI device installed in the circuit.
If the AFCI does not trip, consult a qualified electrician. If the AFCI does trip,
reset the AFCI.

4. Insert the SureTest? Arc into the receptacle under test. Both outside green
lights should be lit indicating correct wiring configuration.

5. Depress the AFCI test button on the tester. The blue test light will turn on indicating
the activation of the AFCI test. The AFCI should trip, and the blue AFCI
test light and wiring indicators should go out, indicating a properly functioning
AFCI. Reset the AFCI breaker to restore power.

6. If the tester fails to trip the AFCI, it suggests: (a) a wiring problem with a totally
operable AFCI, or (b) proper wiring with a faulty AFCI. Consult with an electrician
to check the condition of the wiring and the AFCI.

7. Caution: AFCI devices recognize characteristics unique to arcing, and AFCI
testers produce characteristics that mimic some forms of arcing. Because of
this, the tester may give a false indication that the AFCI is not functioning properly,
when the problem is within the circuit. If this occurs, recheck the operation
of the AFCI using the test and reset buttons. If the AFCI device?s test function
demonstrates proper operation, consult with an electrician to check the condition
of the circuit.

8. To test for a shared neutral condition in the circuit which leads to nuisance
tripping of an AFCI breaker, plug the SureTest? Arc into the receptacle and
press the NEUT button. A red light should turn on indicating that a load has
been placed between hot and neutral. The AFCI should not trip. If the AFCI
does trip, a shared neutral is the probable cause of the nuisance tripping.

As far as I can see even the manfacture says the device does not produce any meaning full result.

 

[iwire]

How so, please Enlighten us?

The internal test does in fact test all the components that are used to detect ground faults. The test button causes an imbalance in the CTs that a real fault would be sensed by. The test button also verifies the operation of the test button circuit.

An external test can only test the fault circuitry. Not a big deal but a fact none the less. :smile:

 

[electricmanscott]

Sheesh.

The bottom line is that the ONLY recognized and "official" (for lack of a better word) way to test an AFCI is the push to test button.

Say what you want, believe what you want, complain all you want, but that is the truth and the way it is.

If you are an inspector do NOT bother me with your "tester" that is not an approved method of testing. Push the button, see the trip, sign off on the job.
Don't make me make you look like an idiot....again.

Sorry about the last part, just having a flashback to an incident.

 

[ELA]

The internal test does in fact test all the components that are used to detect ground faults. The test button causes an imbalance in the CTs that a real fault would be sensed by. The test button also verifies the operation of the test button circuit.

An external test can only test the fault circuitry. Not a big deal but a fact none the less. :smile:

From the schematic of a GFCI I understand the test button to create a current inbalance by leaking current from the hot to neutral via a resistor.
The hot lead is routed through the sensing core but the neutral is not, thus creating the imbalance. This is very simple circuit compared to a AFCI.

This is totally testable via an external resistor test.

You say that the "test button also verifies the operation of the test button circuit".

Your point being that if you use an external test method that the built-in switch is not being tested? So if you use an external test method you will still need to confirm the test button operation for lay people to use.

I see your point now. We look at things a little differently. My point in most of my discussions is to look at things from an electrical theory or operations point of view. To have a discussion and share knowledge on electrical concepts. I am not very interested in the political end of things.

My only contention here has been that the AFCI should and could have an external test method that is independent of the individual manufacturers test switch. I do no debate the fact that the manufacturers and UL dictate the test button is the only acceptable method at this time.

 

[al hildenbrand]

My only contention here has been that the AFCI should and could have an external test method that is independent of the individual manufacturers test switch.

Amen to that!!!

You are preaching to the choir. Most here agree, and have agreed openly at various time along the last years.

I just appeared in front of the Minnesota Board of Electricity to explain that an AFCIs advanced signal processing and judgements are kept secret in the individual breaker, and that this financially penalizes trouble shooting technicians and homeowners. Afterwards, in conversation with two representatives of Cutler Hammer, it was volunteered that reporting the AFCI processor "judgements" was a good idea.

Duh.

If auto manufacturers can build a car that reports its error codes from the first vehicle off the assembly line, then why not the breaker manufacturers?

 

[wptski]

If auto manufacturers can build a car that reports its error codes from the first vehicle off the assembly line, then why not the breaker manufacturers?

What will be the cost of one that supplies error codes if that's what you really mean???

 

[iwire]

From the schematic of a GFCI I understand the test button to create a current inbalance by leaking current from the hot to neutral via a resistor.
The hot lead is routed through the sensing core but the neutral is not, thus creating the imbalance. This is very simple circuit compared to a AFCI.

This is totally testable via an external resistor test.

You say that the "test button also verifies the operation of the test button circuit".

Your point being that if you use an external test method that the built-in switch is not being tested? So if you use an external test method you will still need to confirm the test button operation for lay people to use.

I see your point now. We look at things a little differently. My point in most of my discussions is to look at things from an electrical theory or operations point of view. To have a discussion and share knowledge on electrical concepts. I am not very interested in the political end of things.

My only contention here has been that the AFCI should and could have an external test method that is independent of the individual manufacturers test switch. I do no debate the fact that the manufacturers and UL dictate the test button is the only acceptable method at this time.

For one I clearly said I was talking only about GFCIs.

Two, there was nothing 'fringe' or 'political' in any of my posts in this thread.

Really my point was simply responding to this false statement by Lxnxjxhx.

BITE (built-in-test-equipment) by definition, cannot include all device components when it does its test.

 

[wptski]

Really my point was simply responding to this false statement by Lxnxjxhx.

Nope, he's correct! How can one press of a test button perform multiple tests yet trip only once? That's impossible!