AFCI protection @ 1st device

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electricalist said:
If its the arc fault outlet that looks like a gfci then yes. I bought a 15 amp at the orange box store just to have in case i had to add something in a house.
My brother in law does custom houses and told me about the system combination as you mentioned.
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So you say you have seen this listed AFCI receptacle that works in conjunction with a Breaker. A Matched pair.

I was in HD yesterday and I have not seen such a animal. I do see the Leviton AFCI however these are not a listed pair.
 
electricalist said:
No not a matched pair or even a clue.
I was saying I bought the device and was told it has to be used in conjunction with a matched breaker.
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That is what I meant - 2 listed devices , listed as a pair to work as a AFCI system.
The device you have purchased can be used in a existing circuit as replacement or the first outlet from which new wiring is fed from.
Or you can use it if the wiring method is of a metallic type or under concrete to the first box. simply put.
 
I never wanna have to use a device that has to be used with a specific breaker. .
I'd think if a product evolved from a code requirement I would have to think the manufacturer influenced the code.
 
electricalist said:
I never wanna have to use a device that has to be used with a specific breaker. .
I'd think if a product evolved from a code requirement I would have to think the manufacturer influenced the code.
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That is a interesting and good point.
What will happen in a replacement situation.
It won't be compliant anymore because the new installer won't use the proper device.

Good going CMP
 
Sierrasparky said:
What will happen in a replacement situation.
It won't be compliant anymore because the new installer won't use the proper device.
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It won't be compliant, as you say, only if new Code is written and adopted to state that it's not compliant.

Today, under the 2014 NEC, replacements are not in 210.12(A)(4)(d). Remember that 210.12(A) covers "branch circuits supplying outlets or devices. . ."

Today, under the 2014 NEC, "replaced" appears ONLY in 210.12(B) and, in 210.12(B)(2), clearly allows only a simple Outlet Branch-Circuit Type Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter (OBC AFCI) to be used, without any concern for whether the over current protective device is even a FUSE or a circuit breaker, let alone a specific circuit breaker that is "identified" as described in 210.12(A)(4)(d).
 
electricalist said:
I never wanna have to use a device that has to be used with a specific breaker. .
I'd think if a product evolved from a code requirement I would have to think the manufacturer influenced the code.
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That has never happened with any AFCI requirements, shame on you for even suggesting that:ashamed:


The combination of the branch-circuit overcurrent
device and outlet branch-circuit AFCI shall be identified
as meeting the requirements for a system
combination?type AFCI and shall be listed as such.
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I haven't seen such devices but to me that says the overcurrent device used will be mentioned in the instructions as suitable for use in combination with the outlet AFCI device to provide "suitable" protection for the branch circuit. You can bet not all breakers out there will be on the list, especially the FPE, Zinsco, Pushmatic, and other discontinued product lines, meaning in many instances you are still setting a new panel or at least a sub panel just to add or modify a branch circuit (in accordance with code anyway), and after doing that why not just use AFCI breaker in your new panel.
 
al hildenbrand said:
It won't be compliant, as you say, only if new Code is written and adopted to state that it's not compliant.

Today, under the 2014 NEC, replacements are not in 210.12(A)(4)(d). Remember that 210.12(A) covers "branch circuits supplying outlets or devices. . ."

Today, under the 2014 NEC, "replaced" appears ONLY in 210.12(B) and, in 210.12(B)(2), clearly allows only a simple Outlet Branch-Circuit Type Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter (OBC AFCI) to be used, without any concern for whether the over current protective device is even a FUSE or a circuit breaker, let alone a specific circuit breaker that is "identified" as described in 210.12(A)(4)(d).
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Great explanation. And for the sake of discussion I will agree with that.
However I did not mean replacement as in a code cycle prior to AFCI mandate. What I mean is that you have a new install where a Branch breaker is installed in conjunction with a Outlet AFCI as per the " paired " exception. Then along comes someone who replaces the breaker with one that is not paired because they don't know it is necessary.
 
Sierrasparky said:
Great explanation. And for the sake of discussion I will agree with that.
However I did not mean replacement as in a code cycle prior to AFCI mandate. What I mean is that you have a new install where a Branch breaker is installed in conjunction with a Outlet AFCI as per the " paired " exception. Then along comes someone who replaces the breaker with one that is not paired because they don't know it is necessary.
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Or they replace the outlet AFCI, same problem.
 
GoldDigger said:
Or they replace the outlet AFCI, same problem.
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True,,,

Who comes up with these things.
They could not leave it alone. AFCI in the panel or Metallic to the first box and a Outlet AFCI.
Done --- no issues. only a idiot would not replace a AFCI with a AFCI unless they were dealing with AFCI faults and refused to find the cause.

This new code will cause many a compliance issues in the future.
 
Sierrasparky said:
This new code will cause many a compliance issues in the future.
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I look at that as job security.

I mean, it is analogous to replacing 2-wire receptacles on ungrounded wiring with ungrounded grounding-type receptacles. Come property sale, in my area, it requires a licensed electrical contractor to do the work and document it, as part of the sale. -- Job security --
 
al hildenbrand said:
I look at that as job security.

I mean, it is analogous to replacing 2-wire receptacles on ungrounded wiring with ungrounded grounding-type receptacles. Come property sale, in my area, it requires a licensed electrical contractor to do the work and document it, as part of the sale. -- Job security --
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I look at it as reason to stay out of the residential market as much as possible and avoid all the hassle of explaining why this seemingly expensive device is needed, why handyman Joe never uses them, and all the other stuff that just is a headache that goes with it. It is hard enough at times to explain to non residential customers why they need some of what they need but at least away from the house they don't claim to know so much about electrical more often then they do at home. When they do think they know so much you just want to ask them "why did you call me if you know so much about it?":happysad:
 
al hildenbrand said:
I look at that as job security.

I mean, it is analogous to replacing 2-wire receptacles on ungrounded wiring with ungrounded grounding-type receptacles. Come property sale, in my area, it requires a licensed electrical contractor to do the work and document it, as part of the sale. -- Job security --
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How well does that go over. Seems quite expensive if it is only 2 wire rope. Do you install a GFCI and call it good or add grounding.
 
kwired said:
I look at it as reason to stay out of the residential market as much as possible and avoid all the hassle of explaining why this seemingly expensive device is needed, why handyman Joe never uses them, and all the other stuff that just is a headache that goes with it. It is hard enough at times to explain to non residential customers why they need some of what they need but at least away from the house they don't claim to know so much about electrical more often then they do at home. When they do think they know so much you just want to ask them "why did you call me if you know so much about it?":happysad:
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Yes I know. sometimes I wonder.
 
Sierrasparky said:
How well does that go over. Seems quite expensive if it is only 2 wire rope. Do you install a GFCI and call it good or add grounding.
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Other inspection agencies create the list of items to correct as part of the sale of the property, and state the violations. Generally the expedient solution on an ungrounded wiring method is to install 2-wire receptacles, except for location(s) that require something more.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Other inspection agencies create the list of items to correct as part of the sale of the property, and state the violations. Generally the expedient solution on an ungrounded wiring method is to install 2-wire receptacles, except for location(s) that require something more.
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Al - I wondering or maybe just confused as I have been going since very early today.
Are you saying you replace 2 wire non grounding with 2 wire non grounding because of a sale.
don't you mean that you replace a 2 wire with a 3 wire receptacle and now it needs to be TR.
 
Sierrasparky said:
Al - I wondering or maybe just confused as I have been going since very early today.
Are you saying you replace 2 wire non grounding with 2 wire non grounding because of a sale.
don't you mean that you replace a 2 wire with a 3 wire receptacle and now it needs to be TR.
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al hildenbrand said:
I mean, it is analogous to replacing 2-wire receptacles on ungrounded wiring with ungrounded grounding-type receptacles. Come property sale, in my area, it requires a licensed electrical contractor to do the work and document it, as part of the sale. -- Job security --
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I'm sorry. I wasn't clear as to WHO was installing the grounding-type receptacles on an ungrounded wiring method.

This is generally done by an uninformed do-it-yourselfer who thinks it makes the property worth more to replace all the old painted 2-wire devices with shiny new grounding-type devices. Happens a lot up here. The uniformed doing things they shouldn't . . . like replacing a listed AFCI breaker / receptacle pairing on an NM homerun with an unpaired component that you were suggesting.

You see? Make better rules to protect idiots and one simply forces the making of a better idiot.
 
I guess the job security environment works better in some places, I don't run into fix it lists from an inspector for the sale of a home for the most part. Even if such inspections are done when a home is sold in these parts, they are not done as a requirement that deficiencies need corrected as much as they are used as a bargaining tool for buyers and sellers.
 
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