AFCI question

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Franklin, welcome to the forum.

franklin640 said:
Sorry if i'm late to the game, but reading thru this - I sense a requirement to put such things, room fans, exhaust fans..., on afci's. We never put anything other than bedroom plugs on those things and never got a second look from anybody. Is it time to stay quite or do I need to know something here.
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Under the 1999 NEC just the branch circuits supply bedroom receptacles are required to be AFCI protected.

Under the 2002 and 2005 NEC all branch circuits supplying bedroom outlets must be AFCI protected.

When you take a look at the Article 100 definition of outlet you find that fans, lights, heaters etc. are all outlets and must be supplied by an AFCI protected branch circuit.

In 2008 the entire house will need to be supplied by a type of AFCI that has yet to hit the market....
 
It reads like a lawers summary in a trial.

Party of the 1st part in accordance with the party of the 2nd part concluding what the party of the 3rd part says.....
 
allenwayne said:
It reads like a lawers summary in a trial.

Party of the 1st part in accordance with the party of the 2nd part concluding what the party of the 3rd part says.....
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I've filed over 20 invention disclosures in the past 15 or so years and I've never gotten used to the language in them.

I'll come up with something like "A method and process for widget construction using recycled toothpicks" and then write 5 or 6 paragraphs describing how it works. The lawyers take those 5 or 6 paragraphs and turn it into page after page about widgets and toothpicks and how toothpicks are recycled.

What bothers me about AFCI's and what y'all say, is that if you're right, and they don't work properly, it's possible that the patents are invalid. Inventions have to be "enabled" in order for the patent to be valid, and if the thing doesn't work it isn't "enabled".

(Anyway, rest break is over -- back onto I-10 ...)
 
iwire said:
Franklin, welcome to the forum.



Under the 1999 NEC just the branch circuits supply bedroom receptacles are required to be AFCI protected.

Under the 2002 and 2005 NEC all branch circuits supplying bedroom outlets must be AFCI protected.

When you take a look at the Article 100 definition of outlet you find that fans, lights, heaters etc. are all outlets and must be supplied by an AFCI protected branch circuit.

In 2008 the entire house will need to be supplied by a type of AFCI that has yet to hit the market....
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They also removed smokes from the requirement, Only 120-volt single phase 15 & 20 amp branch circuits require AFCI protection.
 
stickboy1375 said:
They also removed smokes from the requirement, Only 120-volt single phase 15 & 20 amp branch circuits require AFCI protection.
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Who did?

Not the NEC.

The NEC requires the smokes to be AFCI protected, I don't have my CT amendments handy to check if CT has removed smokes from AFCI protection.
 
State of Connecticut Supplemental Code Changes OCT/NOV 2005

(Amd) (B) Dwelling unit bedrooms. All 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20- ampre branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter, listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit.

EXCEPTION 1: The location of the arc-fault circuit interrupter shal be permitted to be at other than the origination of the branch circuit in compliance with (a) and (b):

(a) The arc-fault circuit interrupter installed within 6 feet of the branch circuit overcurrent device as measured along the branch circuit conductors.

(b) The circuit conductors between the branch circuit overcurrent device and the arc-fault circuit interrupter shall be installed in a metal raceway or a cable with a metallic sheath.

EXCEPTION 2: Smoke detectors shall be permitted to be supplied by branch circuits without such protection providing such branch circuits supply no other outlets within the dwelling unit bedroom.
 
Iwire, thank yu for the pm! I have been busy and needed the nudge. These post cause me to need to discuss with the inspector and my boss about preparing changes in the game plan. Our inspector is constantly qouting something like "IT SAYS IN THE '99 CODE BOOK..." which is why my knowledge was a little short. Nothing past that has been required by the municipalities I work in. I just bought the '05 book, getting into it slowly. I thank you again for contacting me, I really appreciate that!

I just hope the project I finished yesterday, 5 apts. , goes well in inspect as we were told the '99 would be used. :)
 
rich000 said:
Nail plate every hole is something that I do. It saves a lot of headaches in the long run.
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Now that`s just over kill..................... I`ve wired 1000`s of homes and I can say that maybe there have been maybe 5 penetrations of a screw/nail in all those years.And of the 5 - 4 were from a cabinet installer,I started several years back nail plating where cabinets would be installed.But to nail plate everyhole on both sides of a stud is well forgive me senseless.
 
acrwc10 said:
Gotta give you alot of credit for finding a screw in the wire..Good Job..Last year I installed three 2pole 15amp AFCI breakers in a cuttler Hammer panel.With"ZERO" load on the circuits ,nothing on, down stream of the panel, all three breakers are warm to the touch. they are functioning normally other then this.everything on the cicuits work fine?Any suggestions?
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I might be missing something here but why are you installing 2pole AFCI breakers?
 
stickboy1375 said:
I have that amendment in my van... and smokes are OUT,
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Wow, that'll make things a little easier considering we tie all ours together and hate feeding them from bedroom circuits. Should be on their own and clealy labeled since the end user will be taking them down for battery replacement. Life safety issue as well. I can hear the code board now. "We should take smokes off the AFCI requirement.". "Why?". "Because AFCIs don't work....":D
 
blue spark said:
I might be missing something here but why are you installing 2pole AFCI breakers?
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Blue Spark,

Have you ever tried to protect just one side of a multiwire branch circuit with a single pole AFCI?

-Or- Have you ever tried to protect a multiwire branch circuit with two single pole AFCIs?

. . . .can't be done.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Blue Spark,

Have you ever tried to protect just one side of a multiwire branch circuit with a single pole AFCI?

-Or- Have you ever tried to protect a multiwire branch circuit with two single pole AFCIs?

. . . .can't be done.
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I guess with the inherit problems I've had with multi-wire branch circuits regarding AFCI, we never run multi-wire bedroom branch circuits unless it's a 14/4 HR on two single pole AFCIs to adjacent bedrooms splitting them at the first switch box. Otherwise it's just a 14/2 HR. I asked that because an AHJ once made us install a 2P20A AFCI to supply bedroom baseboard heaters. We fought it and eventually won but it was a PITA. Luckily he's not in our area any longer.
 
We just had this same problem last week in a thread and thought he said that the dry waller put a nail in one place and then he found a pinch wire in the light part of the fan/light fixture. After that the AFIC worked fine.
 
blue spark said:
we never run multi-wire bedroom branch circuits unless it's a 14/4 HR on two single pole AFCIs to adjacent bedrooms splitting them at the first switch box. Otherwise it's just a 14/2 HR. I asked that because an AHJ once made us install a 2P20A AFCI to supply bedroom baseboard heaters.
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Sounds like new construction.

A whole set of issues with existing dwellings exist, when the homerun is already in place.

Many, though not all, jurisdictions enforce 210.12 in the 2005 NEC when a new outlet is installed in an existing bedroom and that new outlet is added to the existing circuit. Many jurisdictions will require that the circuit overcurrent protective device be upgraded to AFCI.

The practice of multiwire branch circuit homeruns, for economic reasons back when the dwelling was built, becomes a significant cost now when AFCIs have to be installed.

Sometimes the lowest cost to the homeowner is in installing the 2 - pole AFCI and adding the new outlet. (read, sometimes installing a new homerun for the new single outlet is so expensive that the 2 - pole AFCI saves the homeowner on the bill).
 
The only 2 pole afci I am familiar with is the CH Cuttler style. Very rare panel in my parts. I keep one on my service van and have never had any chance to sell it to any customer.
 
macmikeman said:
The only 2 pole afci I am familiar with is the CH Cuttler style. Very rare panel in my parts. I keep one on my service van and have never had any chance to sell it to any customer.
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Yep and a little on the spendy side I might add.
 
macmikeman said:
The only 2 pole afci I am familiar with is the CH Cuttler style. Very rare panel in my parts. I keep one on my service van and have never had any chance to sell it to any customer.
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I keep a 2-circuit CH box on the truck to use with their AFCI breakers. The CH panel is reasonably popular in my parts, but it find that I use a fair number of their 2 circuit boxes when adding receptacles in bedrooms in a dwelling that is served by a fuse panel. It is a fairly common service call for me to add "air conditioning receptacles" in bedrooms. In an old fused service, often the whole second floor (where the bedrooms are) is served by one 15 amp circuit. Adding window air conditioning receptacles in some or all of the bedrooms is often the only way to accomodate that type of appliance. The 2 circuit boxes are a good method.

The code has given us good reasons to upsell AFCI protection and the manufacturers have given us all the tools to do it with on old work. It's up to us to seize the opportinity to cash in.
 
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