AFCI Question

Merry Christmas
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radiopet said:
Ahh....if you truly believe it is an effective safety enhancement I win the consumer wins and the manufacturer wins....they just happen to win more than me....but we all win.
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For it to be truly effective, if would have to be installed in the millions of inadequately wired older (30+ years) buildings across the country, where the majority of so-called "electrical" fires start. That just isn't going to happen.
 
celtic said:
Yeah, I know Paul....but once the hamster gets on the wheel :D

I saw your pic. in your profile...how many times have you seen that movie? (I'm at about 1000 LOL)
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lol....what PIC...the one of me and my son...?

Yeah I have seen that freakin movie TOOOO many times with an 9 year old in the house...
 
peter d said:
For it to be truly effective, if would have to be installed in the millions of inadequately wired older (30+ years) buildings across the country, where the majority of so-called "electrical" fires start. That just isn't going to happen.
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AHHH....but if it starts NOW....our children will have all the research they need on it.

Can't cure cancer in a day.....ask Phillip Morris....:)

Actually I am working on a program ( dare I not say the name of the company as I can HEAR it now...lol ) that will get more AFCI's into older homes hopefully....so you just never know.
 
radiopet said:
AHHH....but if it starts NOW....our children will have all the research they need on it.
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Well, it's obvious we will have to agree to disagree on this one

This device won't change human behavior, which is a factor in many electrical fires (Ignoring the warning label and running an extension cord under a rug.) We can't make our society fail-safe, but it sure isn't stopping people from trying!
 
Paul,
Now with that said......I support the 2005's NEC requirement of the AFCI....I am not ready to jump on the band wagon for the 2008's version just yet......I believe even more testing needs to take place. I am simply supporting my belief that AFCI's can and will save lives......just like the GFCI has done.
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Now I really don't understand. When an branch circuit/feeder type AFCI is installed (the type of AFCI that is now on the market) there is almost no protection beyond the fixed wiring of the building. That would mean that you believe the majority of the new dwelling unit fires of electrical origin originate in the fixed wiring of the dwelling unit. I really doubt that is the case. The only real need for an AFCI for new construction is the protection of the items beyond the outlet. That protection does not yet exist. If they ever get it to work I would support it, but I believe that is 5 to 10 years away. Remember the device that Eaton said that they had in the original proposal, that was made on or before 11/04/1994, was claimed to have all of the functions that they now claim the combination type will have. The first UL standard for AFCIs was not published until June of 1996.
Well basically I am telling you "EXACTLY" what is told to me...I have the e-mails and I trust my sources.
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At this point in time I have no reason to believe that any statement about AFCIs by any AFCI manufacturer is factual. The type of information provided about AFCIs has made mistrust any statement or white paper authored by a manufacturer. I already take with a grain of salt any article in any trade publication that was written by a manufacturer's rep.
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
The only real need for an AFCI for new construction is the protection of the items beyond the outlet.
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Wasn't this supposed to be the AFCI's claim to fame?
 
I guess my stance is......I forgive and forget.....many companies make alot of claims about different stuff. Fact is over time it gets better and promises are kept and product advances and my personal belief is the AFCI is a good thing....

Do I have some issues with it...sure, do I think it should be on all 120V 15 & 20A branch circuits.....well I am still out on the jury with that.....I believe I have been told most companies have not finished the heat testing so far on mass grouping of the AFCI's......

So with that said....look I like AFCI's....Don do not get me wrong my friend as you are entitled to your own opinion and to be honest yours probably ways MUCH more than mine.......but I can only give my personal opinion and information I have been given.

I just don't think it harms the industry nearly as much as people are claiming...hell I make MONEY on suggesting them and installing them.....and I don't feel bad at all about doing that......

But it's all good fella...it's all good..........you know I value your thoughts fella....:)
 
Guys you should get your hands on a copy of UL 1699. When you look at what makes a combination device, there is only one additional test. There is a test in there for the branch feeder that detects series arcing down to 5Amps just like the combination's claim to fame. Based on that, I can see why someone would say there is protection beyond the receptacle with these things.

I don't see where the combination device adds all that much more coverage on the circuit?

Again, before we start cutting down the device, get a copy of UL 1699 and understand the beast. It opened my eyes. Unfortunately I can't copy it up to this site due to copyrite laws.

Puts things into perspective and I can understand where a manufacture would say that the branch feeder does give you that additional protection that the combination device claims to fame.
 
and considering most of the AFCI's already came with GFI protection to 30MA for equipment protection...and now the many AFCI's like Fire-Guard are AFCI/GFCI devices...and do protect down to 5MA for GFCI.........

Honestly I think they are coming along way......
 
Paul,
I just don't think it harms the industry nearly as much as people are claiming...hell I make MONEY on suggesting them and installing them.....and I don't feel bad at all about doing that......
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I agree that everyone, except the homeowner, makes money on these things. That is not really my issue. My issue is that they do not provide the protection that the CMP has been lead to think that they do. This misinformation is not unique to the AFCI. We have the exact same thing going on with the self testing GFCIs. The information being published by the manufactures strongly implies that the self testing GFCIs will automatically disable themselfs when they fail the self test. That is not the case. With one brand an warning light comes on and with another the device will "lockout" after the next manual test. In both cases a person has to take some action. Like the AFCIs these devices are not fail safe.
Don
 
Paul,
and considering most of the AFCI's already came with GFI protection to 30MA for equipment protection...
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All do and it is my opinion that of the few fires that these devices will actually prevent, most of them will be prevented by the action of the GFP that is built in to the AFCI and not by the fancy arc fault detection circuit.
Don
 
Paul,
..Don do not get me wrong my friend as you are entitled to your own opinion and to be honest yours probably ways MUCH more than mine.......but I can only give my personal opinion and information I have been given.
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That is all I am doing and your opinion on this matter is just as valid as mine.
Don
 
iwire said:
Faith?

Heck he sounds like a paid spokesperson.:rolleyes:
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Whatever would make you think that?

Perhaps something like
Press Release - Paul W. Abernathy ( The Electrical Guru )and Eaton? Manufacturing ( manufacturer of the Cutler Hammer brand products ) have agreed to a 4 year agreement to have " The Electrical Guru? " facilitate the certification program for the Eaton? Certified Contractor Network throughout the United States.​
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lol........nope but I said in my post about it...lol....I don't work for eaton except to train the ECCN guys....very different.

However I am not ashamed....check my history over at NACHI...been supporting AFCI's for years....:)
 
radiopet said:
AHHH....but if it starts NOW....our children will have all the research they need on it.

Can't cure cancer in a day.....ask Phillip Morris....:)

Actually I am working on a program ( dare I not say the name of the company as I can HEAR it now...lol ) that will get more AFCI's into older homes hopefully....so you just never know.
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Ahh..see the reference above in my previous post...lol...knew someone would say I was a sell out...:)plus I told you all I had a source for my information...;)

But to be honest with you..I support all manufacturers of AFCI products....;)
 
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radiopet said:
lol...knew someone would say I was a sell out...:)plus I told you all I had a source for my information...;)
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Aha!! We have a ringer here!!:grin:
 
yanici said:
Aha!! We have a ringer here!!:grin:
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Oh H*ll no.....no way......NOPE........nada....never......

I figured I would post my comments on the AFCI because I had some inside knowledge of the upcoming events and so on...nothing more..:)

I supported AFCI's well before that time.....I never hide anything as it is clearly on my site and in open public...:)

I just want Don to know....they are looking out for him and hope to make it all good very soon on the shallow promises of the old days....in fact I am hoping to load my entire panel up with AFCI's and do some testing if all goes right...:)
 
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