AFCI Rage...I have it BAD

[Rewire]

Waiting here with bated breath...

quit eatin the bait.

 

[growler]

I just don't buy the fact that there are these major problems that have existed in my installations for all of these years uncorrected yet none have gone up in flames.

Scott, I don't think you are going to find a major problem, it's probably going to be very minor in appearance, that's what makes it hard to find.

I have just been reading an article from a manufacturer on series arcs.

They say that a series arc is typically sputtering and intermittent in nature and tend to alert the homeowner since they lead to intermittent device operation such a flickering lighting loads.

Another manufacturer says that most series arcs will not show up as they will be so minimal in nature. This will just take some getting used to to see how bad a problem needs to be before a trip happens.

They are right that a loose connection will show up sooner or later on a regular breaker. The lights will flicker and you will know you have a problem. With series arc fault protection I believe that the breaker will trip before the customers sees any flickering of lights unless they are standing right there when the lights go out.

One way to check to see whick type of arc is present would be to install some of the older arc fault breakers that didn't have series arc fault protection and see if they hold. If they trip you will know that it's a parallel arc and it's time to meg the circuit. Or you could just go ahead and meg the the circuit, just to make sure.

It's probably not a bad idea to meg every circuit before the rock goes up any way. I pig tail & cap every thing so it shouldn't be that big of a problem.

By the way, no one had any idea how bad their auto emisssions were until they started testing. When they first started the test here I had a new car that wouldn't pass and an old van that had no problems. I had a slight vacuum leak on the car that I would never have known about.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Marc, why should we or our customers be forced with additional costs by the use of this product. Many of the people here who experience problems do top notch installations and only now are experiencing problems because of the product. .

I think Marc touched on this already, but you have always had these problems, the only difference is now you have a product that can detect them.

How many millions of staple are being used to hold down cable in this country and how many are pinching the cable and of those how many cause a fire every year? Don't have a clue, but if the AFCI's are doing their job that number should drop considerably.

Every and I mean every, AFCI problem that I have been called out on since they have been required, has been an install issue. I do agree as someone else stated, that the time to find these things are before we turn on the power after the house has been drywalled.

 

[gndrod]

testing workmanship

testing workmanship

This is a good time to ask everyone what they think of as far as hypot testing during the rough-in prior to rock or after switch, receptacle, and luminaire(no lamping) installs. rbj

 

[frenchelectrican]

This is a good time to ask everyone what they think of as far as hypot testing during the rough-in prior to rock or after switch, receptacle, and luminaire(no lamping) installs. rbj

As far for Hypot testing it allready doing that on the mobile home and some of the moduair home manufactors allready done that for many years.

but i haven't see it yet in the resdential area not yet but i do megger it from time to time

Merci,Marc

 

[peter d]

How many millions of staple are being used to hold down cable in this country and how many are pinching the cable and of those how many cause a fire every year?

IMO, that problem can be stopped with very little additional cost by requiring the use of insulated staples.

This is the common New England staple:

 

[cowboyjwc]

IMO, that problem can be stopped with very little additional cost by requiring the use of insulated staples.

This is the common New England staple:

And I bet something like that would sure cut down on the return calls for "faulty" AFCI's.

 

[augie47]

You could start by using the search button, click 'advanced search', then look for the keyword "megger" from user mdshunk and brian john and maybe zog. Read the threads, and follow any external links to even more training material.

In short, there is no formal training that I'm aware of, but I'll answer anything you want to know in this regard the best way I know how if I can. Familiarize yourself with the operation of a couple new instruments and an AFCI will never kick your tail again.

Marc:
If you answered this, I missed it and apolgize.
Teach me ! I have used a megger for testing for "ground faults" many times. In testing for a "series fault", and locating it, what is the procedure with a megger ?

 

[JohnJ0906]

I know that here had been heat issues with Siemens afcis in the past but that was supposedly corrected. Possibly relevant as I did move an afci that was grouped with a few other ones and carrying a 10 amp lighting load. It was fairly hot so I put it at the top of the bus away from other afcis. The lights were left on all day and the breaker held.

I think some AFCIs' instructions say to space them from other breakers, for heat dissapation. I also thought that this was the reason for eliminateing the 42 circuit limit for panelboards.

I also admit that I could be wrong, so....

 

[ohm]

Arc Fault Detection & Discrimination Methods

Arc Fault Detection & Discrimination Methods

I stumbled on a white paper from Carlos E. Restrepo who is an Engineering manager in the Residential Product Division at Siemens. If you want to know anything about an AFCI here it is: carlos.restrepo@siemens.com

I'll be taking an AM radio with me when troubleshooting AFCI problems. Two things are present on a circuit with an arc fault; 1) absence of broadband RF noise and 2) sinewave zero crossing flatness, "as the arc extinguishes itself and re-ignites when there is enough voltage to reestablish the arc across the conductors"

 

[76nemo]

This is a good time to ask everyone what they think of as far as hypot testing during the rough-in prior to rock or after switch, receptacle, and luminaire(no lamping) installs. rbj

HiPot or meggering gndrod? There is a difference in what you are reading.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I stumbled on a white paper from Carlos E. Restrepo who is an Engineering manager in the Residential Product Division at Siemens. If you want to know anything about an AFCI here it is: carlos.restrepo@siemens.com

Instead of emailing Mr. Restrepo, it may be more advantageous to read the white paper. The white paper is:

Arc Fault Detection and Discrimination Methods (it is a PDF file that will require Acrobat Reader, or something like it, to open and view.)

Additional AFCI resource is at the Siemens web site here

 

[76nemo]

Marc:
If you answered this, I missed it and apolgize.
Teach me ! I have used a megger for testing for "ground faults" many times. In testing for a "series fault", and locating it, what is the procedure with a megger ?

Somewhat timestaking unless you get lucky Augie. In a series fault, that's exactly what you have to do, go from termination to termination from one conductor to another as well as pipe if used. That's the only way to pick out the arcing fault point, is from one termination point to the next to rule out where the problem lies.

On another note, and I may get some slack for it, but it is how it is. Loop impedance testing can sometimes be much quicker and does not have to be done offline. That's one good reason for a tester of that sort. I have been using the Ideal 61-165, and it has been a LOT easier than pulling off terminations from point to point megging each one.

Is that the answer you were looking for?

EDIT: No that's not the answer you were looking for, I somewhat described parallel testing.

 

[ultramegabob]

Indiana exempted AFCI protection....

Indiana exempted AFCI protection....

The State of Indiana, Indiana Department of Homeland Security Training Division Fire and Building Codes has just received final approval from the Fire Prevention and Building Safety Commission for the amendments to the 2005 Indiana Residential Code. The 2005 Indiana Residential Code with amendments will have an effective date sometime in early May, 2008.

These amendments are currently not published, however will be available prior to the effective date.

The current amendments to the Indiana Residential Code are available at; http://www.in.gov/legislative/iac/T06750/A00140.PDF

The new amendments to the Indiana Residential Code that will modify the current amendments are attached.

Currently and with the revised amendments, the State of Indiana will still exempt AFCI protection of dwelling units. The State of Indiana is in the process of adopting the 2008 National Electrical Code, once adopted, this document will amend the electrical sections of the Indiana Residential Code to match the Indiana Electrical Code.

 

[jdsmith]

On another note, and I may get some slack for it, but it is how it is. Loop impedance testing can sometimes be much quicker and does not have to be done offline. That's one good reason for a tester of that sort. I have been using the Ideal 61-165, and it has been a LOT easier than pulling off terminations from point to point megging each one.

Could you elaborate on the loop impedance testing with the Ideal 61-165? I actually bought one of those today and that's the only feature I don't understand after reading the instructions. Many of the other functions and the potential downfalls of the tester have already been discussed in other threads.

 

[76nemo]

Could you elaborate on the loop impedance testing with the Ideal 61-165? I actually bought one of those today and that's the only feature I don't understand after reading the instructions. Many of the other functions and the potential downfalls of the tester have already been discussed in other threads.

Do you fully understand loop impedance testing????

 

[jdsmith]

Do you fully understand loop impedance testing????

I re-read the manual for the suretest but it leaves me hanging on exactly what measurement is being made and what the equipment is really doing. I did some searching and found some discussion of it in the "Exploding Lightbulbs" thread But I still don't have the whole picture. Is there an introduction available like there is for the megger?

 

[GUNNING]

Greed: HUGE problem

Greed: HUGE problem

AFCI's are a mistake. But I'm going to do service calls and beat up the manufacturers and state legislatures and Insurance companies that make me use em and charge out the wazoo to find that big screen TV or grandmas heirloom table lamp that is making them trip. I can find the short, the miss wire and the bad device. The lumpy electricity that might be happening, no way.
AFCI devices are a manufactured defect by statute, that uses the local electrician as a whipping boy to make a profit. I'm going to make a lot of money on these puppies. I'm also going to have a hold harmless agreement on the van to change the breaker out to a normal breaker till the parties over and UL delists them.
Wire nuts. Read the instructions. Strip 3/8ths of an inch, match up and put a wire nut on em. No where does it say to twist the joint. This is a HUGE loose connection/arc fault. Back wire? Its an approved method! HUGE loose connection/AFCI. When you are blaming a tripped breaker on a light bulb what confidence do you have on the device? Huge problem. Must be the $70 breaker not the $1.00 light bulb. Cash please.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Wire nuts. Read the instructions. Strip 3/8ths of an inch, match up and put a wire nut on em. No where does it say to twist the joint. This is a HUGE loose connection/arc fault.

While the instructions don't tell you to pretwist they do tell you to tighten until you see two twists in the wire outside of the connector. At least the Ideal wingnut instructions say that.

 

[GUNNING]

Off topic, kinda

Off topic, kinda

Your Right about the Ideal wire nut instructions, 3M does not mention twisting. I like the 3m blue and orange ones because they are physically smaller than the yellows, take 3 #12's, and are University of Florida colors! GO GATORS!