AFCI satisfaction poll. Please take a moment to answer.

[Schofield]

I read a few pages here but did finish so this may have already been mentioned. It should be easer to find AFCI receptacles, using them instead of breakers would make it so at least people wouldn't have to go find the breaker box when one tripped. In VA the only part of the code that was adopted on AFCI's was the bedrooms so here you could have one in each bedroom and piggy back the rest of the RCPT's in that room off of the one AFCI. That's legit now but more expensive and really hard to find AFCI RCPT's... any way, just my 2 cents.

 

[macmikeman]

Allright. I finally got into a thread that gets made into a sticky. Twenty years of climbing up the mountain.

 

[kwired]

I read a few pages here but did finish so this may have already been mentioned. It should be easer to find AFCI receptacles, using them instead of breakers would make it so at least people wouldn't have to go find the breaker box when one tripped. In VA the only part of the code that was adopted on AFCI's was the bedrooms so here you could have one in each bedroom and piggy back the rest of the RCPT's in that room off of the one AFCI. That's legit now but more expensive and really hard to find AFCI RCPT's... any way, just my 2 cents.

Some may feel it is easier to find the breaker then the correct receptacle in some instances, plus first part of 210.12 in 2014 says "The arc-fault circuit interrupter shall be installed in a readily accessible location." May not always be easy to comply with that.

Also the general intent if you read 210.12(A)(1-6) carefully is that the entire branch circuit be protected, or where it isn't, there are typically special provisions needed between the circuit origin and the AFCI device, this kind of makes (as of 2014 NEC anyway) it so that most new circuits will still be using an AFCI breaker, and the receptacle type AFCI's are for old work or possibly instances where an AFCI breaker may not be possible to use. Maybe a new circuit from an existing FPE or Pushmatic panel?

 

[handimatt]

AFCIs LOST THE PR WAR AND LOST THE CONFIDENCE OF ELECTRICIANS A LONG TIME AGO

AFCIs LOST THE PR WAR AND LOST THE CONFIDENCE OF ELECTRICIANS A LONG TIME AGO

I have been studying Arc Fault circuit interrupters now since they were introduced in 2001. I can not tell you how "backwardly" and "upside down" the introduction of Arc Fault breakers were to the electrical community. Here are some observations.
1) Arc faults are a victim of the technology that bore them. They are an electronic product that suffers from "nuisance tripping" from all sorts of electronics products, new and old. They can be affected by newer LED technology, treadmill, receivers, computers, wall chargers, various lutron wall switches, antique hunter fans (the oil kind). Try telling a customer that the new product they bought can not be used on an arc fault.
2) The tools and training we have at our disposal is laughable. The intelliarc tool by Seimens while the best we got can not even distinguish between a parallel or series arc fault. There is a difference in finding these different types of arcs but our tools won't even tell us which type it is.
3) Arc faults accept faults and trip from arc faults and electronic noise that is on other circuits. There is no filter that isolates the fault to one circuit.Sometimes this caused multiple breakers to trip requiring hours and hours of trouble shooting often to not find a problem but a kitchen appliance that is putting out a false arc noise from its electronic board.
4)Arc faults suffer from the same problem as fuses did. It is easy for the customer to replace the arc fault breakers with a regular breaker after we leave. This leaves the customer unprotected. Don't forget other electricians might remove the arc fault breaker to get an easy service call
5)Arc faults trip one time but have five different possibilities of why the arc breaker tripped. Manufacturers could and should put an indicator for each type of fault to have a quicker trouble shooting time. Also, eliminate the "you have a bad AFCI" comment that most electricians like to give rather than actually trouble shoot
6)The minimum 5 amp thresh hold for tripping on a series arc event creates all sorts of havoc. The customer can not understand why they can not get a cause and effect for the tripping. While this makes us more valuable, the end result can be the customer defeating the AFCI by replacing.
7)Non-conformity among technologies among manufacturers. I understand about proprietary property, but there should be an AFCI committee that sets standards for all AFCI or its not a level playing field. Each manufacturer is independently trying to figure out what will cause nuisance tripping. I have builders who want certain brands over others because they think that brand will have less problems.
8)The testing of AFCI in real world conditions is questionable by what I have read
9) AFCIs do not stop glowing connections and do trip under all arcing conditions
10) AFCIs performance can be affected by distance from the panel.
11)AFCIs are affected by ethernet over power distribution systems. Audio and network companies use these all the time
12)AFCIs tripping when there is not a fault can lead to power going out that provides lighting presenting an unnecessary hazard
13)AFCIs can be affected by Hamm Radio systems
14)AFCIs can be affected by dirty power from the utility
15)AFCIs nuisance tripping can be caused by multiple electronic sources creating harmonic effects that are next to impossible to troubleshoot.
16)In new construction, the electrician 99% of the time bears the cost alone to troubleshoot and repair issues that are most of the time not his fault.

 

[macmikeman]

I have been studying Arc Fault circuit interrupters now since they were introduced in 2001. I can not tell you how "backwardly" and "upside down" the introduction of Arc Fault breakers were to the electrical community. Here are some observations.
1) Arc faults are a victim of the technology that bore them. They are an electronic product that suffers from "nuisance tripping" from all sorts of electronics products, new and old. They can be affected by newer LED technology, treadmill, receivers, computers, wall chargers, various lutron wall switches, antique hunter fans (the oil kind). Try telling a customer that the new product they bought can not be used on an arc fault.
2) The tools and training we have at our disposal is laughable. The intelliarc tool by Seimens while the best we got can not even distinguish between a parallel or series arc fault. There is a difference in finding these different types of arcs but our tools won't even tell us which type it is.
3) Arc faults accept faults and trip from arc faults and electronic noise that is on other circuits. There is no filter that isolates the fault to one circuit.Sometimes this caused multiple breakers to trip requiring hours and hours of trouble shooting often to not find a problem but a kitchen appliance that is putting out a false arc noise from its electronic board.
4)Arc faults suffer from the same problem as fuses did. It is easy for the customer to replace the arc fault breakers with a regular breaker after we leave. This leaves the customer unprotected. Don't forget other electricians might remove the arc fault breaker to get an easy service call
5)Arc faults trip one time but have five different possibilities of why the arc breaker tripped. Manufacturers could and should put an indicator for each type of fault to have a quicker trouble shooting time. Also, eliminate the "you have a bad AFCI" comment that most electricians like to give rather than actually trouble shoot
6)The minimum 5 amp thresh hold for tripping on a series arc event creates all sorts of havoc. The customer can not understand why they can not get a cause and effect for the tripping. While this makes us more valuable, the end result can be the customer defeating the AFCI by replacing.
7)Non-conformity among technologies among manufacturers. I understand about proprietary property, but there should be an AFCI committee that sets standards for all AFCI or its not a level playing field. Each manufacturer is independently trying to figure out what will cause nuisance tripping. I have builders who want certain brands over others because they think that brand will have less problems.
8)The testing of AFCI in real world conditions is questionable by what I have read
9) AFCIs do not stop glowing connections and do trip under all arcing conditions
10) AFCIs performance can be affected by distance from the panel.
11)AFCIs are affected by ethernet over power distribution systems. Audio and network companies use these all the time
12)AFCIs tripping when there is not a fault can lead to power going out that provides lighting presenting an unnecessary hazard
13)AFCIs can be affected by Hamm Radio systems
14)AFCIs can be affected by dirty power from the utility
15)AFCIs nuisance tripping can be caused by multiple electronic sources creating harmonic effects that are next to impossible to troubleshoot.
16)In new construction, the electrician 99% of the time bears the cost alone to troubleshoot and repair issues that are most of the time not his fault.

Excellent post. You left one thing out however. Upstream arcing faults , from loose connections either at the service drop connections or even at the utility pole, or inside utility transformer connections can cause branch circuit arc fault breaker devices to trip in dwelling load centers.

 

[kwired]

Excellent post. You left one thing out however. Upstream arcing faults , from loose connections either at the service drop connections or even at the utility pole, or inside utility transformer connections can cause branch circuit arc fault breaker devices to trip in dwelling load centers.

He did not mention that situation specifically but did effectively mention they do sometimes respond to things that are happening somewhere besides the protected side of the unit. This is one of the problems that is really frustrating, it is not the installers fault, yet the installer ends up putting a lot of time and $$ into solving such issues and often gets no compensation for it, or some just eliminate the device to save some of that time and $$ but then that put them at risk for future lawsuits should there ever be a fire at that installation, bottom line - the installer is the one bearing a lot of the problems here and is the least compensated for it.

 

[macmikeman]

He did not mention that situation specifically but did effectively mention they do sometimes respond to things that are happening somewhere besides the protected side of the unit. This is one of the problems that is really frustrating, it is not the installers fault, yet the installer ends up putting a lot of time and $$ into solving such issues and often gets no compensation for it, or some just eliminate the device to save some of that time and $$ but then that put them at risk for future lawsuits should there ever be a fire at that installation, bottom line - the installer is the one bearing a lot of the problems here and is the least compensated for it.

I agree completely with this, but at Mike's forum I am a gentleman and behave myself, but if you want my unfettered responses to the Afci issue, go look at other forums where I get a large bit more comical and don't hold back on it.

 

[kwired]

I agree completely with this, but at Mike's forum I am a gentleman and behave myself, but if you want my unfettered responses to the Afci issue, go look at other forums where I get a large bit more comical and don't hold back on it.

Comical I could put up with, but the general bullying on most other sites turns me off.

 

[klineelectric]

Petition

Petition

90% of what I do and have done for the last 26 years is new residential construction. I love electrical work and being an electrical contractor. That being said I have been having serious thoughts about hanging it up recently, because of these ridiculous afci breakers and the stress that comes along with them. There is nothing more frustrating than trying to explain to non-electricians (homeowners) that these things do trip for the many reasons listed earlier in this post. If I didn't have an electrical backround and just spent $$$ on a brand new house that had a breaker trip occasionally for no logical reason I would be pissed. Like many posters on here we have chased ghosts on occasion and found nothing. I would love to replace afci with a standard breaker but I don't want that liability so I have to try to get the homeowner to understand these nuisance trips. Don't get me wrong out of the hundreds of houses we have wired the last few years I have only 2 houses with the sporadic ghost trips, which I have gone over entire circuit. If the breaker trips on command I can find the problem 100% of the time, but ghost trips? I read on here that some LED's and dimmers can cause nuisance trips, which I didn't know, and I have been installing a lot of both lately. Anyway where is the PETITION that can signed by electrical contractors and those in the electrical field that can be sent to the NEC CMP to repeal these damn things before I pull out all of my hair. Does anyone think a petition with alot of (probably anyone in the trade who was asked) signatures would have any sway with the CMP or is this just wishful thinking since it seems the manufacturers are making most code changes now a days. If car manufacturers (ford/chevy....) had a "safety" product in there vehicles that was causing like nuisance problems for no reason that couldn't be traced to a source how long do you think they would keep using that product. Aren't we collectively Ford and Chevy? Not a great analogy but hopefully you get my point.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

There is no provision for a CMP to look at petitions. They look at Public Inputs and Public Comments. The 2017 code is open for Public Comments at this time, but unless you have a solid technical substantiation no amount of public comments will change anything.

 

[GoldDigger]

There is no provision for a CMP to look at petitions. They look at Public Inputs and Public Comments. The 2017 code is open for Public Comments at this time, but unless you have a solid technical substantiation no amount of public comments will change anything.

And if you cannot get technical substantiation because the data is proprietary to the manufacturers, you are SOL.

Much like marijuana has no proven medical value because no experiments were permitted by the Feds.

 

[bphgravity]

Hundreds, if not thousands of consumer products are recalled and pulled off the shelves each and every year. Electrical products rank amongst the least recalled consumer products. This is due to our robust product standards and NRTL programs. If AFCIs did not perform in accordance with the product standard they are investigated to, the CPSC would yank them in a heartbeat.

We have proof of this. The CPSC with cooperation of Schneider Electric NA recalled approx. 700,000 Square D AFCIs back in 2004. These were truly defective products, at least in part.

AFCIs are frequently compared to GFCIs. Its a fair comparison and I have done it myself. The better comparison would be some alarms. Some people love them, some people hate them. Some believe smoke alarms are too sensitive and nuisance alarm to frequently. Others believe smoke alarms are not sensitive enough and need to be more sensitive to smoke and gas emissions. The key is placing the right kind of smoke alarm in exactly the right location. Its a tricky balance. Can't be too close to certain things, but can't be too far either.

AFCIs are no different. There is a tricky balance between detecting true arc-faults that may result in a fire while allowing normally operating arcs that frequently occur in utilization equipment.

 

[iwire]

Hundreds, if not thousands of consumer products are recalled and pulled off the shelves each and every year. Electrical products rank amongst the least recalled consumer products. This is due to our robust product standards and NRTL programs. If AFCIs did not perform in accordance with the product standard they are investigated to, the CPSC would yank them in a heartbeat.

We have proof of this. The CPSC with cooperation of Schneider Electric NA recalled approx. 700,000 Square D AFCIs back in 2004. These were truly defective products, at least in part.

Recalls have absolutely nothing to do with AFCIs

1) being required by a code

2) being effective or not

3) having positive benefit to cost

I have to say the more you post on this subject the more you sound like a guy that has closed their mind to any ideas that are not sanctioned by NEMA and your recall argument sounds like a line of misdirection that would make a snake oil salesman proud.

Very shocked and disappointed that has become the case.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

... If AFCIs did not perform in accordance with the product standard they are investigated to, the CPSC would yank them in a heartbeat. ....

The problem as I see it is very simple...the product standard has nothing to do with the real world.

 

[bphgravity]

I have to say the more you post on this subject the more you sound like a guy that has closed their mind to any ideas that are not sanctioned by NEMA and your recall argument sounds like a line of misdirection that would make a snake oil salesman proud.

So every post made on this Forum that is opposed to AFCIs is profound and scholarly. And anyone that is in support of AFCIs is closed minded, corrupt, and dumb.

It appears you guys have run out of anything technical to argue against AFCIs with so you just result to personal attacks. I get it.

I am working to help make the product standard better - you want to burn the standard out of existence.
I am working to help make the technology better - you want to have the technology banned from the code.
I am working to help the manufacturers provide better education, resources, and guidance on the installation of AFCIs - you want the manufacturers to go to jail.

I'm the closed minded one?

 

[bphgravity]

The problem as I see it is very simple...the product standard has nothing to do with the real world.

Then no product standards do. Every product standard simulates the real-world environment or condition. This is not unique to AFCIs. There is absolutely nothing special about UL 1699. Its origin, development, and current state is identical to every other product standard in existence.

If there is a better way to detect arcing faults, it will be found, and the standard will be updated. If there is a better way to test the performance of the arc detection device, it will be found, and the standard will be updated.

This same concept applies to every other electrical product.

 

[romex jockey]

Hundreds, if not thousands of consumer products are recalled and pulled off the shelves each and every year. Electrical products rank amongst the least recalled consumer products. This is due to our robust product standards and NRTL programs. If AFCIs did not perform in accordance with the product standard they are investigated to, the CPSC would yank them in a heartbeat.

.

Lee & Trotta have sat on CMP-2 ,as alt's and/or non voters, along with Dini and a few other perennials for nearly 2 decades now Bryan.

You're assumptions of their scrutiny is weak, in light of contrary evidence

As more is revealed , they may appear in a rather different light.....


Or, as our forums benefactor poses it.......

I’m tired of the technical mambo jumbo. I just want to see how this works in the real world.

Mike Holt

~RJ~

 

[bphgravity]

I know every member of CMP-2 personally and am in awe of their intellect, passion, and dedication to the electrical industry. It's rather shameful how fast and easily you discredit them, individually even. this type of behavior adds nothing to the discussion.

BTW: Mr. Holt has completely changed his tune with regard to AFCIs. This is what intelligent and reasonable people do. “Those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.”

 

[MasterTheNEC]

I know every member of CMP-2 personally and am in awe of their intellect, passion, and dedication to the electrical industry. It's rather shameful how fast and easily you discredit them, individually even. this type of behavior adds nothing to the discussion.

BTW: Mr. Holt has completely changed his tune with regard to AFCIs. This is what intelligent and reasonable people do. “Those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.”

Well Said NEMA Rep...Well Said!

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...
BTW: Mr. Holt has completely changed his tune with regard to AFCIs. This is what intelligent and reasonable people do. “Those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.”

And that applies to the supporters of the AFCI as well as its detractors.