AFCI Situation

Status
Not open for further replies.
I have done many service upgrades and i never have replaced breakers with afci. It is only required when you extend an existing circuit. Once the afci outlets hit the market you will only be required to afci protect from where you tap into a circuit and downstream. Install afci outlet line/load like a gfci.
 
vino82 said:
I have done many service upgrades and i never have replaced breakers with afci. It is only required when you extend an existing circuit. Once the afci outlets hit the market you will only be required to afci protect from where you tap into a circuit and downstream. Install afci outlet line/load like a gfci.
Click to expand...

I agree but the wording in the 2008 & 2011 leaves alot to be desired. One could argue if the old wire didn't reach the breaker in the new panel and you added a foot of wire to make it reach then you have modified the circuit and need an afci. I think most areas do not require it in a panel change out and I believe that is the intent of the NEC esp. in light of the changes they have made and the changes they are looking at.
 
Speshulk said:
I'm still trying to figure out why afis are required at all. Are the millions of homes that don't have them all in some great peril?
Click to expand...

Exactly why there is/has been so much controversy over AFCI's in general. Many argue whether or not AFCI's do what manufacturers claim they are supposed to do. I like the principle of what they are supposed to do, but am myself a little sceptical whether they get it done. That does not change the fact they are in the code, so I install them anyway, and my inspectors have no choice but to enforce the code requirements.

Usually if replacing a panel and the new panel goes in same place the old one was it is not considered modification of the branch circuits - even if you have to extend a conductor within the panel so it can reach where it needs to terminate. If however you move the panel to a new location and have to junction the branch circuit conductors and extend them to the new location it is considered extending the circuit by some AHJ's. NEC does not say anything about whether or not that is considered extending the circuit or not. You may want to find out just how the AHJ where you are working treats it.

It is unfortunate you have inspectors that can be bought to inspect the way you or your competitors want them to inspect. This is not only unfair to you but also to the people that may be effected by unsafe conditions that have been have deemed to be acceptable. It is likely if they are taking money to overlook things there is some laws being broken someplace. Get enough people that feel it is wrong together to stand up as a group and get something done about it.
 
kwired said:
It is unfortunate you have inspectors that can be bought to inspect the way you or your competitors want them to inspect. This is not only unfair to you but also to the people that may be effected by unsafe conditions that have been have deemed to be acceptable. It is likely if they are taking money to overlook things there is some laws being broken someplace. Get enough people that feel it is wrong together to stand up as a group and get something done about it.
Click to expand...

Let's just say I've been taking pictures of various violations along with the particular inspector's sticker. My favorite was seeing his sticker on a panel where someone had removed a 100 amp panel and installed a 200. It wasn't a complete service replacement, just the panel. Whoever it was tied the existing #2 directly into the main in the new 200A panel. They also installed an additional ground bar and ran all the ground wires to it, but neglected to install the bond screw. It was a house with most of the electrical work surface mounted in EMT. You can imagine what might have happened had there been a fault to ground in any of that EMT.

In order to stand in front of this panel, you had to step over the wire coming through the wall that fed from the pressure tank to the well pump. The wire laid on the basement floor and ran into another basement room to where the pressure tank sat. How anyone could put a "Final Inspection" sticker on that panel is beyond me.
 
Speshulk said:
Let's just say I've been taking pictures of various violations along with the particular inspector's sticker. My favorite was seeing his sticker on a panel where someone had removed a 100 amp panel and installed a 200. It wasn't a complete service replacement, just the panel. Whoever it was tied the existing #2 directly into the main in the new 200A panel. They also installed an additional ground bar and ran all the ground wires to it, but neglected to install the bond screw. It was a house with most of the electrical work surface mounted in EMT. You can imagine what might have happened had there been a fault to ground in any of that EMT.

In order to stand in front of this panel, you had to step over the wire coming through the wall that fed from the pressure tank to the well pump. The wire laid on the basement floor and ran into another basement room to where the pressure tank sat. How anyone could put a "Final Inspection" sticker on that panel is beyond me.
Click to expand...

If they are taking extra money to allow things like that to pass - they not only can lose their job or license they possibly could face criminal charges. Most inspectors probably would not do this, there are always bad apples in the basket, someone needs to clean them out of the basket, before the rest are effected.
 
Speshulk said:
Let's just say I've been taking pictures of various violations along with the particular inspector's sticker. My favorite was seeing his sticker on a panel where someone had removed a 100 amp panel and installed a 200. It wasn't a complete service replacement, just the panel. Whoever it was tied the existing #2 directly into the main in the new 200A panel. They also installed an additional ground bar and ran all the ground wires to it, but neglected to install the bond screw. It was a house with most of the electrical work surface mounted in EMT. You can imagine what might have happened had there been a fault to ground in any of that EMT.

In order to stand in front of this panel, you had to step over the wire coming through the wall that fed from the pressure tank to the well pump. The wire laid on the basement floor and ran into another basement room to where the pressure tank sat. How anyone could put a "Final Inspection" sticker on that panel is beyond me.
Click to expand...

Whats wrong with replacing a 100A panel with a 200A panel?

Every PB I have seen comes with the bond screw already installed. You have to remove it if you don't need it. In any case, the bond screw would be in the neutral bar not an added ground bar.
 
petersonra said:
Whats wrong with replacing a 100A panel with a 200A panel?

Every PB I have seen comes with the bond screw already installed. You have to remove it if you don't need it. In any case, the bond screw would be in the neutral bar not an added ground bar.
Click to expand...
I think what he was getting at is by not having a bond screw in the neutral bar the can is not bonded - the ground bar mounted on the can is not bonded to grounded service conductor either.

I can not recall ever purchasing a panel with bonding screw / jumper already installed. Equipment grounding bars are seldom installed either - may be included but not installed. There is usually more than one possible place to install them is probably part of the reason why.
 
petersonra said:
Whats wrong with replacing a 100A panel with a 200A panel?

Every PB I have seen comes with the bond screw already installed. You have to remove it if you don't need it. In any case, the bond screw would be in the neutral bar not an added ground bar.
Click to expand...

I took it that the existing 100 Amp Service Entrance was replaced with a 200 Amp without increasing the size of the conductors.

He doesn't say if this was a feeder from the SE that was protected at 100 Amp.
 
Speshulk said:
Let's just say I've been taking pictures of various violations along with the particular inspector's sticker. My favorite was seeing his sticker on a panel where someone had removed a 100 amp panel and installed a 200. It wasn't a complete service replacement, just the panel. Whoever it was tied the existing #2 directly into the main in the new 200A panel. They also installed an additional ground bar and ran all the ground wires to it, but neglected to install the bond screw. It was a house with most of the electrical work surface mounted in EMT. You can imagine what might have happened had there been a fault to ground in any of that EMT.

In order to stand in front of this panel, you had to step over the wire coming through the wall that fed from the pressure tank to the well pump. The wire laid on the basement floor and ran into another basement room to where the pressure tank sat. How anyone could put a "Final Inspection" sticker on that panel is beyond me.
Click to expand...

While we would have or tried to clean up the mess with the well wire, if the HO says "No!", we are not required to correct every thing we see that is wrong. Our inspectors look for something that poses an imminent threat to life or property before he shuts something down, or requires correction before a final is given.
 
kwired said:
If they are taking extra money to allow things like that to pass - they not only can lose their job or license they possibly could face criminal charges. Most inspectors probably would not do this, there are always bad apples in the basket, someone needs to clean them out of the basket, before the rest are effected.
Click to expand...

It's not a matter of taking extra money. It's the fact that the inspection companies are private and are hired by contractors.
 
petersonra said:
Whats wrong with replacing a 100A panel with a 200A panel?

Every PB I have seen comes with the bond screw already installed. You have to remove it if you don't need it. In any case, the bond screw would be in the neutral bar not an added ground bar.
Click to expand...

Nothing is wrong with upgrading a panel, but they connected the existing 100 amp wire directly into the 200 amp main. I'm not sure I could have written it any more clearly.

It's a Square D Homeline panel. They don't ever come with the bond screw installed. Without the bond screw, the cabinet (and therefore anything connected to the cabinet) isn't bonded to the neutral.
 
Speshulk said:
It's not a matter of taking extra money. It's the fact that the inspection companies are private and are hired by contractors.
Click to expand...

Private inspectors are not something we run into here, but I hear of places where that is how it is done. Don't they still have some City or State authority that they have to comply with? Someone needs to regulate them otherwise they are not doing any favors for anybody - except for their contractor buddies.

Maybe it would be a better idea to still have private inspectors but you request inspection to public agency and they select an inspector for a project instead of contractors just hiring their buddy. Seems like a breeding ground for corruption in the first place.

Speshulk said:
It's a Square D Homeline panel. They don't ever come with the bond screw installed. Without the bond screw, the cabinet (and therefore anything connected to the cabinet) isn't bonded to the neutral.
Click to expand...
But they do come with a bond screw. I have plenty of spares from the panels that did not need it installed, if for some reason a panel does not come with one or it gets lost.
 
I live in 2011 world and every service change I do involves extensions and junctions. I haven't been made to Arc Fault any of that stuff...add an outlet, most def.
 
kennydmeek said:
I live in 2011 world and every service change I do involves extensions and junctions. I haven't been made to Arc Fault any of that stuff...add an outlet, most def.
Click to expand...

Required wire bending space has increased panel sizes from what they were 30+ years ago. If you are putting a panel in same place where the original was and it was one of those compact panels they used to make - all the raceways and cables typically need no junction boxes for conductors to reach the new panel. You may sometimes need to splice neutrals or something within the new panel because the neutral bus in the new panel is not ar the top leaving only three or four inches of neutral conductor for all the circuits that entered the top of the old panel.
 
kwired said:
Required wire bending space has increased panel sizes from what they were 30+ years ago. If you are putting a panel in same place where the original was and it was one of those compact panels they used to make - all the raceways and cables typically need no junction boxes for conductors to reach the new panel. You may sometimes need to splice neutrals or something within the new panel because the neutral bus in the new panel is not ar the top leaving only three or four inches of neutral conductor for all the circuits that entered the top of the old panel.
Click to expand...

I rarely find it that convenient and more than a couple of splices in a panel looks tacky. I'd much rather put an 18x18 junction above the panel and bring everything in nice and pretty. It pays better, gains the respect of customers and inspectors, and gives you something really pretty to take a picture of for your portfolio.
 
Dennis Alwon;1398977 One could argue if the old wire didn't reach the breaker in the new panel and you added a foot of wire to make it reach then you have modified the circuit and need an afci. [/QUOTE said:
Opinion about location of panel feeding these existing circuits.

Example. The main breaker panel was located in the basement after the meter.
A panel change with a main breaker outside and new panel is placed on the first floor.
The existing circuits are not "extended" to reach the new panel location but are actually shortened (and most reach without shortening).

AFCI's required?
Click to expand...
 
Speshulk said:
It's a Square D Homeline panel. They don't ever come with the bond screw installed.
Click to expand...

I'm thinking most panels are that way (if not all).

How are those homelines? Never installed one.


Been using the regular sq. d's (QO) but as of lately have been considering a switch to Cutler Hammer.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top